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Thread: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

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  1. #41
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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    Weak return spring on the starter, allowing the pinion to drift aft on acceleration?

    Jeff

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    Quote Originally Posted by charleyf View Post
    It sounds to me like the bolts holding the starter on the car were loose.
    The starter mounting bolts were tight...very, very hot.
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell_Walker View Post
    So on my TR4A, the ring gear somehow lost all of the bolts holding it to the flywheel. Sometimes it would stick enough to the flywheel that the car would start with the stater, other times the starter would just spin the ring gear around on the flywheel. I was actually able to fix it by removing the starter, getting the gear lined up, and putting bolts in one at at time. I think as I got one side on, I rolled the car, in gear, to get the gear pressed back on.
    Nothing wrong with the bolt on ring gear...now we’re so close to the problem it’s killing me not to just blurt it out!
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    Quote Originally Posted by TRopic6 View Post
    Weak return spring on the starter, allowing the pinion to drift aft on acceleration?

    Jeff
    And...I have to give it to Jeff!! You are not spot on, but you are so close you would have discovered it when you checked. So...you pull the starter to check the pinion, and here is what it looks like:



    So, to pass the exam and win the part, Jeff...you will note there is NO return spring on the early style starter by design...can you detect the problem from the picture?

    Everyone else give Jeff a chance to bring it home!
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    As luck would have it, I was in the basement unpacking my car books after our recent move and found my red TR2/3 service manual. Looks like the locating ring has come out of its slot on the armature shaft, with no sign of the locating ring cover, and the front bushing has moved rearward. All that could allow the whole armature to shift aft on acceleration; the pinion teeth do show rubbing on the side that faces the ring gear.

    I was thinking that the "restraining spring" (Part H, Fig 20, p. 17 in Electrical Equipment) had broken or become weak with age/heat and allowing the Pinion & Barrel to shift aft. That spring (and some other parts) are covered by the barrel and not normally visible. I read over on p. 16 "A pinion restraining spring is fitted in the barrel assembly to prevent the pinion vibrating into mesh when the engine is running."

    I have a bullet nose starter and a spare armature assembly in a box somewhere, but can't get to it to verify. Does your whole armature assembly shift fore & aft?

    Added: I guess so - I see a good bit of the armature shaft is sticking out beyond the nose cover - Yikes!

    Jeff
    Last edited by TRopic6; 08-03-2018 at 11:26 PM. Reason: typo

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    That can't possibly be it. It has to be something else. I'm never wrong. Ah-what do I know about starters. Congratulations to the winner.

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    Whoop. Whoop!! We have a winner!!

    All bow to the GURU of BCF!!!

    This picture will show a close view of what Jeff is talking about...



    Just as he says...the retainer came out of the shaft groove. This allowed the entire starter shaft to move to the rear on acceleration, so the pinion gear would rattle against the flywheel ring teeth. Spot on, Jeff!

    This picture shows how the shaft is able to pull the pinion out of the stowed position, so it could continually hit the ring teeth, getting kicked back forward until the acceleration moved it back again. I assume in the higher gears there is not enough acceleration to move the shaft, therefore it only happened on hard acceleration in first...and sometimes second if I popped the clutch.



    Here is a picture of how the clip is supposed to be seated into the shaft groove...



    Here the shaft is prevented from sliding rearward, taking the pinion gear with it.

    And Jeff, I have to thank you a ton for going into even greater detail. So far I simply reinstalled the clip, as in the picture. The clip is not tempered spring steel, but is very malleable. (Spelling?). So...I was wondering if I had pinched it correctly into place, or if I forgot to do so during the rebuild. Even if I DID crimp the clip, I was wondering what was supposed to prevent the pinion from pounding it back out later. Thank you so much for explaining that an outer retainer ring is missing altogether!!

    Now I can locate the retainer and fix the starter for good...thanks!!

    And thank you to everyone who participated in the exam. I’m sure I’ll have another opportunity for you to excel in the near future!
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    Nice exercise, John. Perhaps woke up a few brain cells.
    Tom
    1960 TR3A TS73117 (under endless restoration, owned since 1964)
    1959 TR3A TS58023 (in case I never finish the one above)
    1969 Triumph Herald 13/60 (a whim)
    1970 Lotus Elan Plus 2 /0023/N
    1992 BMW325IC (fun to drive)

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    OK, that was interesting. No I need to go look at my starter.

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    Yoda
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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    I remember learning new cuss words when I first took an early starter apart, but it looks like you do not have to go that deep for the fix. Now I am wondering if I have a locating ring cover on this last one I rebuilt and installed. This exercise could be serendipitous. Plus I think I remember thinking this does not look right. Why wouldn’t the end just punch off? Moreover, I looked through my books and could not find a clear picture of the cover retainer ring . It must be part # A in the drawings, so anyways John did you find or make one.

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    John,

    After looking at my 1959 bull nosed starter I see a difference that could be significant. In your pictures there is a bronze/brass collar in front of the retaining clip. On my starter that collar is steel. However, the critical difference is that the collar has a recess machined in the face of it and that recess is where the retaining clip goes. Apparently what that does is prevent the clip from being forced out of the groove. And we now know what happens when the clip comes out of the groove.

    I took a picture with my cell phone but don't know how to transfer that image to this this tablet. I'll figure that out later.

    Enjoy your day.

    Bill

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    I'm no guru compared to the real experts here, CJD included. What I thought was your out-of-place bronze front bushing was actually a makeshift Locating Ring Cover. I agree with Bill, it should have a recess to prevent the retaining/locating ring from being worked out of its slot.

    The factory parts book doesn't show much detail but the service manual has a good diagram. I've never found a 'peg' on one; maybe Lucas simplified them at some point. The Restraining Spring 'H' keeps the pinion from drifting rearwards into the ring gear when accelerating or going up hill. Later-type starters use a similar spring to keep the pinion on the other side of the ring gear.

    Have to admit - I've never heard of that happening before and never considered it when reusing a stretched and distorted one back on my TR3A back in the day. More that once, as I swapped it into my TR4 when it's starter was inop (It complained by making more racket than normal) Ignorance is bliss as they say.

    P1090042.jpgP1090044.jpgP1090046.jpg

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    Thanks for the additional input guys. Yep, the more I look for this retainer, the more I realize I will have to fashion something. The parts manual does not even list it. Moss doesn't show it. VB...well...yeah!??

    I think I will visit some local auto electric shops to see what they have, as I am sure it was common "in the day". Of course, it was likely more common than an auto electric shop is today. Most of ours have closed down. I may even have a spare starter kicking around to cannibalize.

    It is very possible that I missed the fact the collar is not spring steel and neglected to crimp it. Anyway...it'll give me something to search for to keep me busy for a while. Thanks again!
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    John, if you can't easily locate a collar take the one you have, along with the clip, to a machine shop and have them cut in the recess. Shouldn't take a good machinest more than ten minutes.

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    Jedi Trainee TRopic6's Avatar
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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    A little internet sleuthing of vintage Lucas reference material shows that 1955-59 used starters with a slightly different arrangement than the service manual shows. Apparently starter motors 25541F/G/H used 'Jump Ring' 291616 and 'Collar, Location' 291614 to keep the armature in place. There's one on eBay now at a pricey $20.

    I dug out my spare bullet-nose starter that I thought was untouched. No sign of a restraining ring or collar at all, so will need to solve that problem as well.

    Jeff
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by TRopic6; 08-05-2018 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Clarify years

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  18. #56
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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    I went out and dug through my stuff and found an old starter with the collar, but it is the only one I have. I took a blurry picture to show what it looks like for scale.

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    I bet a friend with a lathe could turn out a replacement part.
    I own 1958 TR3A TS 26005L and have the privilege of working on 1960 TR3A TS 65587L.

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    is it too late for me to enter?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFX_IE4CUtU

  22. #59
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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    Not the case here, but I once had the big spring on the end of the later starter come loose and go rattling around inside the bell housing. It would find a home and be quiet until the next big bump, which might mimic the symptoms John described.

    Unfortunately, it exited through the bell housing before I got home (was in FL when it cane apart). The hole started a crack that eventually ruined an OD gearbox.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: TR2/3 Guru Final Exam

    I see Bill beat me to it, but that ring is indeed soft, almost no spring to it at all. The steel collar has to fit over it and hold it in the groove; has to be assembled before the outer housing is bolted to the main housing.

    Also means there has to be minimal end float in the armature with it assembled, so the collar has no room to come off the ring.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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