TR4/4A What kind of restoration?

[KansasWhirl]

Hello, my next question for the forum is what kind of restoration makes the most sense on a that is in very good reasonable rust-free condition that needs all the mechanicals overhauled like brakes, clutch controls, etc. The engine turns over and believe after going through the fuel system and electricals it may run so I'm wondering should I just fix everything and get it driveable or would it make more sense to do a frame off restoration now since I plan on keeping it to drive lots of miles. There are the usual rust spots, under the driver's feet, the battery box, a little on the inside front fender but otherwise the frame all other body parts are in really decent shape. Would a frame off be overkill or would it be more efficient in the long term? Also wondering if all the upgrades should be done- electric fuel pump, better front spindles, alternator,etc. I'd be interested in hearing what people have done who put a lot of miles on them every year.
Thanks!

 

[TR3driver]

Kind of a personal decision, IMO. What do you enjoy more, restoring the car, or driving it? For a "driver", I've never seen the point in doing a "frame off". My attitude is "Drive it until it breaks; fix it; drive it some more".

I also find that, as I get older, I appreciate the original car better. I've tried electronic ignition, not impressed (in fact, I've got 3 of them stashed in a parts box). Points just aren't that bad. I may go back to electronic if I ever get the planned "hot rod" motor built and the points turn out to be problematic then.

I did have some cooling problems with this TR3, so I wound up with several cooling mods before I finally found and fixed the real problem. I'm not quite crazy enough to remove the mods (and I do enjoy not having to keep one eye on the gauge), so I'll keep them at least for the moment. (Radiator recored with no crank hole, modern 7 psi cap, electric fan with original fan removed, high performance thermostat, coolant recovery bottle.)

Stock mechanical pump works fine for me (rebuilt with ethanol-resistant components from TRF). Still wearing the original generator, even though it struggles with the radiator fan & halogen headlights running at the same time.

I haven't put a lot of miles on it in the past year, mostly because it got sidelined after some idiot in a pickup truck backed into me at a stoplight. Still haven't fully finished recovering from that. But normally I drive about 10-12k per year, driving to work every day unless it's raining.

 

[KansasWhirl]

Kind of a personal decision, IMO. What do you enjoy more, restoring the car, or driving it? For a "driver", I've never seen the point in doing a "frame off". My attitude is "Drive it until it breaks; fix it; drive it some more".

I also find that, as I get older, I appreciate the original car better. I've tried electronic ignition, not impressed (in fact, I've got 3 of them stashed in a parts box). Points just aren't that bad. I may go back to electronic if I ever get the planned "hot rod" motor built and the points turn out to be problematic then.

That sounds good and one I'm leaning towards as well. Only thing I'm thinking is if the frame isn't rusted out if it would be a good idea to get stripped down and preserved and painted to avoid rust down the road. Am I just being a nervous nelly?

 

[Andrew Mace]

Only thing I'm thinking is if the frame isn't rusted out if it would be a good idea to get stripped down and preserved and painted to avoid rust down the road. Am I just being a nervous nelly?

That can be done without a full "off frame" restoration. Clean and paint the outside as needed, and there are all sorts of products that can be sprayed inside the frame rails to at least prevent further deterioration.

Partly because I've never had the resources (read: money) to do full off-frame restorations, I've been mostly a "preservation" kind of guy, along with being pretty much an originality kind of guy. It's worked pretty well for me over the years. If nothing else, I get to enjoy DRIVING my cars, rather than panicking every time the skies turn grey or a minivan full of kids parks next to me at the supermarket!

 

[Geo Hahn]

I, too, favor the mostly original approach. I was fortunate enough to pick up a low miles original TR4 about 14 years ago (seems like only yesterday) and, though not prefect, is a joy to drive and gets many compliments.

I is pleasant to just accept the dings and scratches and know that despite them the original paint still takes a satisfying shine.

I drive a lot of miles each year but find that the old stuff (points, generator, Lucas starter, etc) are good enough for me (and easy to fix when need be).

A well-executed restoration is wonderful to behold but I'll never own one or drive one.

As Andy notes, there are products that can suspend whatever corrosion may be underway and, combined with some prudent steps as you drive & park, will keep the car as it is now.

 

[tinman58]

I am not the Guy to talk too. I have done three frame offs in six years. The TR3 twice after being rear ended. The TR 250 I got two years ago was going to be a fix up, cleanup and drive. When you start to clean up one part, the other dirty parts need to be cleaned or painted. And so it begins! We have a nice 250 completely restored, not perfect, I take our two little dogs for rides, go to the grocery store etc. I love driving the TR's. If you are afraid to drive it then it is to perfect.

 

[TR3driver]

Only thing I'm thinking is if the frame isn't rusted out if it would be a good idea to get stripped down and preserved and painted to avoid rust down the road. Am I just being a nervous nelly?

Definitely worth checking out, as it's kind of important. If it is in bad shape, you may need to take the body off just to change it. But generally they hold up pretty well on cars that are driven regularly. Triumphs are famous for their frame oiling system!

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

We all have our own opinions. When I got my TR6 (some 12 years ago), I only fixed what I had to, and drove about 7,000 miles a year. I still love that car, but not as much as my TR3. My TR3 was given to me after it was under 20' of hurricane Karina. I was so disillusioned that I thought I could just fix the most important things and start driving it. Ha. It turns out, no part of that car was useable, and so a 7 year total restoration began. If you think that a "frame off" will allow you to drive it worry free, think again. My first long drive up north (over 3,000 miles) had me driving with white knuckles the whole way. I have never been so worried. My last drive out west (over 5,000 miles), I was finally confident and truly enjoyed the trip. If you were to ask whether I enjoyed the 'driving', or the 'restoring' portion of the car most, I would say 'yes'. And I think that is second to the people I've met, and knowing that I did it myself. For an amazingly simple car, it is chock full of simple things to learn to the point that it is complicated.

It is your car, and your decision how you will enjoy it.

But as a slight aside, the frames tend to rust from the inside out, so any painting on the outside just makes it easier to clean off the oil. I sandblasted mine and painted it, but I have no idea if it's rusting on the inside -but for now, I am enjoying the ride. Let us know what you decide, as I am sure there are people here who can help when you stumble upon one of those complicated simple issues -like where to start. -And post some pictures.

 

[KansasWhirl]

Thanks all for your input. Good to know about frame rusting from the inside also. I'll try to get some pics up this week. Thanks again!

 

[TR3driver]

So, who is going to post the link to the home-made WaxOyl?

 

[DornTRoriginal]

The advice that has been given is very good and spoken from some very experienced gentlemen that have helped me through my project which is twenty years in the making and 3 years into the doing.... I am about half way completed and determined to finish.

My experience leads me to say there are three important factors you should consider; First, do you have the money, second do you have the time and lastly do you have the will and desire. It will cost you a lot more money than you imagined, it will take more time than you believe it would/will and you have to be absolutely committed, motivated and dedicated to survive the journey of a complete restoration project. I believe if you don't have these three attributes completely and 100% available you should do no more than what is necessary and reasonable to keep you car safe and functional. Enjoy it for what it is and be happy with what you have. It will still cost you more money than you want to spend, take more time to operate than you expected but you'll have an experience not everyone gets to have and that is pretty darn cool!

 

[Bremer]

So, who is going to post the link to the home-made WaxOyl?

I will do the honours:

www.healey6.com/Technical/Waxoyl.pdf

 

[KVH]

That can be done without a full "off frame" restoration. Clean and paint the outside as needed, and there are all sorts of products that can be sprayed inside the frame rails to at least prevent further deterioration.

Agree with Andy. Here's what I did on my '66 TR4A solid axle where the body was fantastic but the underside showed some age and surface rust. I'm very satisfied 9 years later: I put the car up on jack stands, removed the tires and the front left and right control arms. I slid under the car for about 4 weeks off and on, wearing a breathing mask and mechanics coveralls I cleaned the entire underside with Marine Clean, a product from POR 15. It's a petroleum free product that can be a bit harsh on the skin, and not good to inhale, so I wore gloves and a mask. That process went on for a long time, as each night after work gobs of grease and grime fell onto sheets of newspaper I'd laid out under the car. I'd use an entire paper every day. I sprayed the cleaner into the frame holes and blew the residue out with compressed air. That was tough and of questionable effectiveness.

Then, using an electric sander, and even an angle grinder with a wire disc, I removed all visible rust from both the frame and the floor boards. Took quite some time.

I then applied the POR 15 Metal Ready, and followed that with a coat of POR15 which is advertised as: "POR-15® is a high-tech, high performance rust-preventive coating designed for application directly on rusted or seasoned metal surfaces. It dries to an incredible rock-hard, non-porous finish that won't chip, crack, or peel, and it prevents rust from recurring by protecting metal from further exposure to moisture."

The underside of my car looks terrific, and I've not seen any hint of rust. However, my car is a born and lived California car, now Arizona.

One last thing: I bought a tub of Waxoyl and sprayed that into the holes in the frame when I was done. What a chore that was. The Waxoyl sprayer is just nothing to rave about. I should've used the aerosol product.

I also rebuilt my engine with the transmission and block left in the car. Very happy there, too, but if you do that be sure to carefully guard against any debris falling into the crank journals.

I'd go "frame on" whenever you can, and then drive the car.

 

[KansasWhirl]

Thanks guys! Frame on it is. I guess I'll start with the fuel tank and fuel lines. There is some old gas in it, doesn't smell like gas now but it isn't leaking so should I pull the tank out and have it treated or just drain it and put in new modern rubber fuel lines to deal with the modern fuel? I also have gotten the point about the electrical fittings needing to be taken apart and applying electrical grease to each and every one of them to avoid electrical fires. Does it sound like a good start? I just need to get it running to start with and will do the brakes and clutch hydraulic systems after that but want to be sure it doesn't go up in flames the first attempt to get it going.

 

[Geo Hahn]

...That process went on for a long time, as each night after work gobs of grease and grime fell onto sheets of newspaper I'd laid out under the car. I'd use an entire paper every day...

Sounds like an improvement on my method which seems to be to transfer the grease and dirt from the car to myself, then go in the house and take a shower.

For corrosion protection, especially in closed areas, I really like Fluid Film. It sprays on readily but really clings and does not evaporate or dry out.

Fluid Film

 

[Foura]

My TR4A was originally going to be a clean it up and get it going restoration, including the swap of the steering from left to right. The more I got into it, the worse it got. Supposedly a "California" car but last registered in Denver, Colorado. I believe that they occasionally have snow there. I ended up doing a complete body off restoration and have never regretted it. So much easier working with nice clean parts. Much easier to work on the engine, gearbox and diff when they are out of the car. We did a 3000 mile trip to Queensland last year and it ran beautifully. We are doing a similar mileage to Perth this year for the National Triumph Rally.

The ONE thing I would do is buy a brand new wiring loom. The wiring was not much good to start with, and will only have deteriorated over 50 years. Probably the single most important thing to do for a happy experience with your car.