Typical, but lucky, nice day problem [Clutch]

[Brosky]

Well, it was nice today and after playing golf, I decided to take the TR6 for a ride, even though the bumpers are off for plating. I go out to the garage all set to have a bit of fun and when I push down the clutch, it hits the floor with no resistance. Beautiful!

I pop open the master cylinder and no fluid. There is a trail under the car on the mandatory LBC drain pan that seems to indicate that the line let go, or has been leaking since I parked it two weeks ago. I actually thought that I wouldn't be calling TRF this month, but it's not to be.

I noticed that I still have the old style "red" line on. Anyone using stainless or anything else interesting these days? I'm going to replace everything, so now's the time for comments.

I'm just happy it was in the garage and not on the highway where I was heading. Thank you Lord, for small blessings!

 

[Guest]

Paul, the people that have bought and installed (and waited for) the stainless lines seem very pleased with them.
I chose instead the Ni/Cu brake line kit from Moss and have been very pleased with it. Extremely easy to bend by hand without using a tool, snug up nicely and have held for 5 years now. I do know that some very expensive European hardware is running around with the same kind of lines with no apparent problems. Sells for about $130 complete. I have no problem with them.

 

[Brosky]

It's off to the Moss website we go. Thanks, as always, Bill.

 

[BritBox]

Hi Paul,

I switched from a "new" 2-year-old red plastic line to a braided stainless steel line and there's no looking back. I'm sorry I did not put one on when I originally restored the car. Thanks to the better line, I actually ended up getting another year out of what eventually turned out to be a failing rebuilt clutch master cylinder. Now's the time to make the change since you have to get in there anyway.

The TR250/TR6 clutches have so many quirks and weak spots that you have to try to grab any advantage you can!

Good luck and best regards,

 

[Guest]

Geez Paul, I misunderstood (the Saints were winning and I got all excited) your question. You are referring to the clutch master plastic line. I was talking about brake lines. I am with one of the above posts, use the braided line. Like any braided line, keep it away from wiring harnesses. It will slice them like a knife.

 

[Brosky]

I hope that the line is far enough away from everything that it won't be a problem. I will be careful when I get all of the parts to make sure that I don't cut the wires or my fingers. Again, I'm happy that it happened in my garage, rather than the highway or in traffic with no bumpers on the car. It could have been ugly.

 

[RobT]

I replaced the clutch lines with stainless pipe and braided steel hose. Looks nice and haven't had a problem.

The only installation issue I had was getting the pipe to mate properly to the master cylinder. First time I did it, there was a leak at the joint (thankfully silicone fluid, so no damage done). Ended up pulling the master, and fitting the pipe on the bench, working it a little and using correct (approx.) torque to get a solid seal, then reinstalling the master/pipe assembly as one.

I forget where I purchased the stainless and braded parts, was Moss, TRF or VB or some combination. Sorry I cant be more specific.

Rob.

 

[Brosky]

Thanks for the tip Rob. I may have a leak at the seals on the slave cylinder, rather than the line, but no matter because a leak is still a leak.

I stopped to see my buddy Alan at the body shop this morning and decided to fix two annoying problems at once. When I had my engine compartment repainted this spring, the only area that I wasn't happy with was in the area now in need of repair, so this may have a bright side after all. I'm going to add fluid and bleed the system enough to get it to the shop, which is only about two miles away. Then I can pull everything off and he will refinish that area, less the pipe, M/Cyl, etc. and reinstall when done, using silicone fluid.

To address the points that you made, I will be assembling everything on the bench before it goes back in, to make sure it will all play nice together. I bought all of the pieces from Moss, including the .75 master cylinder for the earlier models as well as the SS line. I even order a new clevis pin for the clutch pedal linkage, so this project will be done for my probable lifetime.

 

[RobT]

Paul:

Sounds like the way to go. As for using silicone fluid - a note of warning. I rebuilt both the clutch and brake systems 2 years ago and used silicone. Now the brakes have been fine - absolutely no issues, perhaps not quite as firm a pedal, and needs a bit more care in bleeding (installed speed bleeders at the same time which I also like a lot).

But after a couple of months the clutch started to "stick". That is, rather than engauge and dis-engauge smoothly, it would "jerk" when engauging. At first I thought it was the throw-out bearing/forks sticking, but thought I might as well just pull the master cylinder and check that first (a lot easier, and last thing replaced). Sure enough the cylinder was all scored, and looked like it had been jaming. It was a new alloy unit from Moss. I had honed and rebilt my old one and swapped that in. A couple of months later, the same thing started happening, and sure enough the master was the cause (I knew it this time, as the silicone fluid had turned a dirty metalic colour.

The cause could be swelling seals caused by the silicone fluid, and since these master cylinders are light aloy,
unlike the brake masters, which are steel, I suspect the swelling seals cause the piston (which is steel) to run out-of-true and score the cylinder.

Anyway I sent the original master to be relined at Apple Hydraulics using a stainless steel sleeve - much harder than the alloy. (BTW - Apple recommends not using Silicone) I am not sure if the seals have swolen again, but the clutch has been fine since - no sticking.

Hope this does not happen to you, but something to keep in mind.

Rob.

 

[Brosky]

Hmmmm. Very interesting indeed. I spoke to Erik at Her Majesty's and he said he has converted quite a few Triumphs over to silicone with no issues. But, maybe the cars that he converted haven't been driven enough for that condition to appear.

Moss sales never advised against it either, but I think that I may give them a call to discuss warranty issues with the use of silicone fluid versus conventional. I did order the silicone fluid from them as well.

I did just call tech support and couldn't really get a definite answer from Bill. It was almost a maybe you will and maybe you won't scenario, as far as any swelling or future problems. He said that he felt that silicone fluid may be a bit over rated. He also said that the pedal feel can vary a bit as temperature and operating conditions vary.

I may think about this a bit more before putting the silicone fluid in. This is not a hard system to bleed or difficult to refill during the process. The system virtually gravity bleeds itself and if I cover everything really well after the painting, I don't think that there will be a problem.

Bill at Moss did state that while not all manufacturers do NOT recommend the use of silicone, there are some who do, but could not tell me if Girling was one of them. Another hmmmmmm.

More investigation to follow.

Here's more from the Moss Tech site on their website:
https://www.mossmotors.com/MemberServices...ubcompCode=J000

 

[swift6]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm. Moss sales never advised against it either,

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't mean much really, Moss suggests using the adjustable push rod with the slave cylinder to solve clutch issues too. Using that rod and adjusting that rod will only move the piston in the slave cylinder back and forth, which in turn will raise or lower the amount of fluid in the master cylinder. It won't correct for play in the system.

They also have a really hard time admitting that they might be pushing the wrong item for a given application. Their job is sales first and foremost. Which could also explain why you got wishy washy answers from them.

 

[Brosky]

[ QUOTE ]
Their job is sales first and foremost. Which could also explain why you got wishy washy answers from them.

[/ QUOTE ]


You are absolutely correct on that Shawn. I may start another post just devoted to silicone versus coventional fluid for clutches to see anyone else has had issues.

 

[Brosky]

Hey Mike, sweet website. Very nicely done and interesting as well! Thanks for posting the link. I now have it bookmarked.

 

[BritBox]

Paul, thanks for the kind words about my site--I'm glad you enjoyed your visit. I wish I had time to keep it updated with new content, but I'm only able to do so somewhat sporadically lately.

Your site, sir, is a blast! I have a hard time imagining what it's like to be the original owner of a Triumph. Well done! Your engine bay and engine look like a bowl full of candy, and I want to eat it up.

Thanks again and regards,