Rocker Repair Plan

[Norton47]

Question is how far to go? This photo is of the left side, the right is a bit worse. Rust and pitting further up on the top.
Neither appear to have damage from the front of the A post aft. Photo, https://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd50/...nt=P1010018.jpg
But how well can one tell? Should the whole rocker be taken off and replaced just to make sure? Or should stripping and perhaps sand blasting the outside length of the rocker looking for pinholes be enough?
How to finish the inside of the rocker if most of the original is left in place? I was thinking of buying new rockers and just using the ends. Is this being penny wise, pound foolish.

 

[DougF]

Tap the panel with the metal end of a screwdriver. If it tings, good metal; if it thwuts, bad metal; and if it goes through, no metal.
If you are planning to buy new panels, I'd replace.

 

[alphatopher]

I was in the same boat with the rocker decision, and I went with total rocker replacement. I'm pretty good with my welding skills, and considered replacing both ends but decided against it for a couple of reasons. First, my welds are good, but not perfect, and usually require some filler to achieve total smoothness. I didn't want filler in an area where a stone could easily be kicked up from a tire. Secondly, I figured total rocker replacement would give provide the more structural strength, as the spliced ends would have been directly under or close to both the A and B pillers.

Taking the whole rocker out was easy, just a lot of spot welds to drill out.

 

[2wrench]

Complete replacement. (Noted from the Prince of Patch).

 

[Popeye]

"If it tings, good metal; if it thwuts, bad metal; and if it goes through, no metal."

This is new to me, so please bear with me:

The last part makes sense - if the screwdriver goes through. But "thwuts" could happen if there is undercoating under solid metal?

I'm going to have to try this - thanks!

 

[Norton47]

Taking out the rocker panel was easy, just a lot of spot welds.
That sounds encouraging. What about where the A and B post sit on top it. Are there spot welds there also I suppose.
All most all the edges are there so drilling out the spot welds doesn't scare me. What might be at the A and B post does because I can't see as much nor have I done it before.
You wouldn't happen to have any photo's of those areas?
Thanks

 

[alphatopher]

I believe it is called a stitch weld where the bottom of the post connect to the rocker. I used a three inch cut off wheel, and a Dremel with a one inch wheel to cut this weld. I'll post pics tonight from my home computer.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

The rockers at the A and B posts are spot welded at the toe and to the inner sill. The rocker is also brazed for a bit along the sides of each. The A post has two tabs that are spot welded to the rocker, one in front, the second inside.

I cut the rocker away and around the A and post, then ground the remaining metal out.

Here are some thumbnails, click to enlarge.

 

[Norton47]

Thanks for the photos. Those are great.
It looks like you blocked the car up to get some working clearance but keep it on it's wheels for the right stress to the body.
Can the car be moved with the outer sill removed or must you install a brace across the door opening?

I ordered the new outer sills and end caps.

 

[Guest]

It looks like you blocked the car up to get some working clearance but keep it on it's wheels for the right stress to the body.

Actually, depending on where you place them, using jack stands works as well as blocking, as seen in the photos. Sitting your car up that far in the air on multiple blocks is taking a pretty big chance because the stability of the whole setup is not near as safe as quality jack stands on the frame. We saw that setup collapse several years ago. Lucky the guy wasn't near the car when it happened. My friend Dave up the road is restoring his TR2 and literally building the body on jack stands under the completed chassis.

Not knocking someone else's choice of setups (ok, yes I am.), but the safety factor scares me on this one because I have seen the down side. Better to use larger and wider boards, and of course set your handbrake (if it works) and engage low or reverse. Better yet, use wheel chocks on the larger boards.

My brass-plated units just draw up inside me when I see that setup, still can see that car after the collapse.

 

[alphatopher]

Try using cinder blocks to raise the car. Cinder blocks under the tires raise the car a perfect 8 inches making working on the rocker panels and floor pans easy. The blocks are also much more stable than those wooden boards. I also deflate the tires to about 10psi to keep them from rolling anywhere.

 

[TR4nut]

Although I have used cinder blocks, and still do, I think there has been discussion that they are not safe either - they can fail with no warning. Before I get under the car I typically have backup stands/wheel rims/etc to give me a little more reassurance. And one of these days a lift system will be under the Christmas tree.

Randy

 

[alphatopher]

It hadn't occured to me that cinder blocks may fail. Definately something to think about. Perhaps a different type of CMU block would work better, something along the lines of dry stack retaining wall blocks. I know the Belgrad brand of blocks are more structural solid than regular cinder blocks.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Bill and all,
I blocked the car up for the express purpose of working on the rocker panels and other body parts. Each block is nailed together with a chock on the top to keep the car from rolling off. I agree that wider boards would be safer so if anyone wants to do it this way, I would go with 2x10's, but I have not had any problem with stability at this height. I do not use the blocks when working under the car.

I could have used jack stands under the frame, but for two reasons I chose not to. First I did notice the frame flexed unpredictable when on jack stands as opposed to blocked under the wheels. Second I did not want the suspension hanging fully extended for the length of time it took me to do the job.

Either way, jack stands or blocks, lifting the car sure saves the back.

 

[TR3driver]

Although I have used cinder blocks, and still do, I think there has been discussion that they are not safe either - they can fail with no warning.

Yup. Been There Done That. Fortunately I wasn't under the car at the time, so the impression was only mental.

Home construction sites will frequently have a pile of 2x4 cut ends that are a foot or more long (or you can just buy a couple of studs at Home Depot and cut them). Lay two of them down about 10-12" apart, then lay two more on top of them at right angles but slightly closer together and nail the corners. Repeat until the stack is high enough to suit you (but if you go more than 12" you should probably start with longer boards and more spacing). The resulting pyramid is extremely strong and stable.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Norton,
You do not have to brace the door if you are leaving the body on the frame and the car can be moved around with the rocker off. However, the A post will sag down and out when you remove the rocker. Take lots of pictures and measurements with the door and fenders on, including measurements from the floor to scuttle and from the top of the inner sill to some reference point inside the car.

I also took the glass out of the door and installed and removed the door frequently along with the fenders to insure the door gaps and other body parts were in alignment as the project progressed.

The last challenge was painting inside the A and B posts and inside the rocker after brazing the rocker on.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Not all rockers are equal

A word of warning on the quality, or lack thereof of rocker panels currently available. The rocker panels I got were made in the UK and have these problems and look like this.

You will note the white arrow points to an area that was not stamped properly. This area will need to be deepen. The same apples to the other end where the fender meets. The other arrow points to a rounded end that will need squaring.

The following is an end view of the same end of the rocker.

The white arrows point to areas that are excessively rounded and will need squaring up. The black arrows point out excessively round visible edges that will need crisping up the length of the rocker. The green arrow points to the barely visible depression to accept the foot of the "B" post. The yellow arrow points to another area where the "B" post joins and it should be 90 degrees to the adjoining planes. Lastly in this photo is the blue arrow point to the area just below the door that should be flatter.

This last photo is of the front of the rocker showing areas that need work to fit

In addition to the items pointed out here, 2 of the four holes to mount the fenders need to be plugged and repositioned. The rocker also needs additional bending laterally to fit properly. The distance between the depressions for the front and rear fenders is 3/8 of an inch less then the originals which significantly wides the fender to rocker gap.

Fixing these problems was the hardest part of the job.

 

[PeterK]

It hadn't occured to me that cinder blocks may fail. Definately something to think about. Perhaps a different type of CMU block would work better, something along the lines of dry stack retaining wall blocks. I know the Belgrad brand of blocks are more structural solid than regular cinder blocks.

Cinder blocks are structurally stronger with the holes up instead of sideways. Spread the load across the entire block by placing a piece of 2x10 over the holes.

BUT .. still not the thing you want to use to keep the car off your chest. Wood is better, and wood with jack stands at the structural cross points of the frame even better.

If you're working outside, make sure to put a 2x10 scrap under the jackstand to prevent the legs from digging in and tipping the car. Leave your hydraulic jack in place to form a triangle of the jack and stands to be safe. And teach your better half how to use the jack, just in case it's required.

 

[Norton47]

Re: Not all rockers are equal

Whoa! That seems like some serious hammering.
Did you move the depressions for the fenders to gain back that 3/8" inch and get the better fit?
What did you use to form over to sharpen the long runs, seems like hammer and dolly work would be hard to keep even enough over such a long run.
The lateral bending, do the ends bow away from the car or does the center bow out? I would guess this is due to the stamping process?
Those are great insights, please pass on any more. A little bigger effort than I first thought, but aren't they all.

 

[Guest]

Re: Not all rockers are equal

If I place the rear jack stands in front of the rear axle, the frame will flex and the doors will bind (yes my frame is solid, I don't have the infamous rot at the pivot point). If behind the axle, the body sits well. Too, try and place the front stands as far forward as possible and slightly behind the front towers. With this setup you can do all the hammering and banging you want without fear of moving the car off the supports. That is why I prefer jack stands. When I replaced my floor boards, there was a lot of banging (and cursing) that would've moved the car off center. Plus, if you leave the car on it's suspension, and get in an out as you work, you will get some undesired movement, even encourage it to roll. Again, my friend that has restored more cars than most, uses jack stands.