Question on Hardened Axles

[msoylemez]

I have been toying with the idea of converting to rear disk brakes (as my rear drums don't really work right now--I've been relying on front brakes pretty much exclusively) and called around and found that Winner's Circle has a pretty easy disc brake conversion kit for about $650ish I think. This set up would force you to fab an ebrake set up, but with a spot caliper from Wilwood or somewhere else, this could be done. Cool.

While I had Dave at Winners Circle on the phone, for curiousity's sake, I asked him about the hardened axles, and he told me that he would definitely recommend double hubs if I went this route. He then proceeded to warn me, however, that sometimes the double hubs have problems mounting on the original axle housing (getting a good seal I guess(?)) and that the axle housing would have to be ground down and that this might then lead to more issues with other parts in proximity and then something else, which led to something else, which then caused something to do something else, etc. Truth be told, I didn't understand all of the issues he told me (this happens to me frequently!) , but I do remember that the upshot was that if you switched to hardened shafts, it could very well lead you down a rat hole.

So, my question is 1) does anyone know what Dave was talking about and 2) is he correct?

Mustafa

 

[spritenut]

Dave, the salesman/owner of Winner's Circle.
He will tell you whatever you want to hear and it all sounds great until you get the parts.
Wanna buy one of his fiberglass bonnets from me?
It was so bad, I couldn't give it away. But he told me how great it was and everything I wanted to hear before I ordered it. And of course, no returns.
If your rear brakes are not working, check it out. Maybe the Tee on the fender needs attention, or a bum master cylinder. Or just some mechanical problem at the shoes.
The rear drums are fine when working properly even with a beefed up engine.
Hardened axles came on all Spridgets from the mid sixties on. EN17 is the code on the hub. Double bearings are great if you race on a track all the time but way overkill on the street.
You can do what you want to your car but ask someone who has done what you want to do and where they bought their parts.

 

[racingenglishcars]

As is known, the rear takes a very low percent of the total braking force. The drums work well even on the race car. Yeah, I know everything could be better, but I must assume this is a street car. And they are light weight enough in the back. I think you simply wont heat those brakes up enough to warrent disks no matter how hard you drive. I can think of a lot better places to put my 650.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

First off, I don't think you need any of that stuff for a street car, you're not going turn enough rpms or make enough hp to warrant it. For what it's worth I've ran the rear disc set up on two different race cars, the DB hubs ( we even made our own DB hubs for awhile) and the the HD RACING axles which are life savers if turning 8k with 130+ hp, but on the street, just get the late model axle. I've known Rob and Dave at Winners Crcle for 20 years and have nothing but good to say about them.

 

[Sarastro]

What exactly is the difference between the earlier and later axles that makes the later ones stronger?

Just broke an axle last week on my 1960 stock bugeye--turned out it was a cheap replacement one. But, that means the original one broke at some point, too. I have a set of later ones on order, and I'm glad to see that you recommend this. But I just wondered what the difference is.

 

[aeronca65t]

The title of this post is somewhat misleading.

The axles are not really "hardened" (if they were treated to full-hard, they'd crack in no time flat). It would probably be better to refer to them as "improved" axles.

All Spridget axles are heat-treated to a "toughened" state, but some axles are made from improved materials and the heat-treat process is more exacting. Also, the physical design of the improved axles is different.

According to Moss:
"The improved axles are built from EN30B Steel and heat treated to 39-41 Rockwell hardness[note:this is moderately "hard" but not to the point of being brittle]. The drive flange is a spline fit to reduce failures and is machined from EN24T steel for durability."

In other words, the axle is spined at both ends on the improved models and forced into the drive flange (and some, like the Moss units, are also retained with a nut while others are simply a press fit that is essentially like a welded fit).

We also have one weird race axle on our '62 racer (Orange #23) which has a spiral groove the entire distance of the axle.....I've never seen another one like it.

FYI: "Protocol" on this forum is that we do not bash vendors. That's Basil's rule and I think that overall, it's a good one. You are all free to PM each other about your experiences with various vendors, but please keep this stuff off the public area of the forum. Tnx.

Moss improved axle-"two piece" and splined at both ends

 

[regularman]

I wonder what type of axles are on my 71? My brother had a 71 about 15 years ago and broke an axle and had to replace it with one of two that he bought from a boneyard. He kept the other in the trunk when he took the midget out of town just in case one broke. Hmm, this makes me want to ask him if he still has that extra axle. If he does, I might do the same.

 

[jlaird]

"Protocol" on this forum is that we do not bash vendors. That's Basil's rule and I think that overall, it's a good one. You are all free to PM each other about your experiences with various vendors, but please keep this stuff off the public area of the forum. Tnx."

But what if I want to bash Hap. He's always posting here with all kinds of tips and info. He's too smart and makes me feel quite the novice. LOL

Hi Hap, wave.

 

[Bugeye58]

Jack, bash Hap at your own risk. He may come down and <u>sit</u> on you!! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif
Jeff

 

[regularman]

I would think that people's experience with vendors should be a very important part of the discussion on these boards. Its good to know what works and what doesn't and learn from other peoples experience before you go down that path yourselves. I also understand that vendors ads probably pay for this board.

 

[jlaird]

Come on down Hap, I could use some help. You too Jeff.

 

[Sarastro]

Interesting about the hardness and construction of the high-end, racing axles. But, what about the late-model stock axles, which Hap recommends for the street? In what way, precisely, are they superior?

 

[Bugeye58]

From "Forum Rules":

4. No vendor bashing! If you have a problem with a vendor (whether supporting or otherwise), take it up with the vendor. Don't use this forum for registering complaints about any vendor or business.

Jeff

 

[Bugeye58]

Jack, I'd love to come down and take a break from this weather. Maybe get me fired up about doing something to one of the Bugeyes, too!
Jeff

 

[Bugeye58]

Interesting about the hardness and construction of the high-end, racing axles. But, what about the late-model stock axles, which Hap recommends for the street? In what way, precisely, are they superior?

They're made of a higher strength steel, primarily. There may be some subtle machining differences, such as the blend radius of the shaft to the flange.
Jeff

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Bash away Jack, I've been sitting home for the last three days with a bug, a real nasty one, right now I have the strength of a wet noodle /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Just sitting at the computer desk is a major undertaking, oh well lets go lay down again.

 

[jlaird]

Oh not nice at all Hap. Hope you better real soon. At least the TV is a bit better on the weekends.

 

[Bugeye58]

Hap, I sympathize with you. I went through the same thing last Monday~Wednesday. It's a particularly nasty bug. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/pukeface.gif
Jeff

 

[kcbugeye1275]

I've driven a bugeye for 25 years without a broken axle. The last five with a five speed and a a 1275. I've always treated the bugeye almost like it had almost just been stolen,ie, driven pretty hard. I really have a hard time understanding how you can break axles. All that said., I'm installing a built SC motor and am really curious what will happen. My engine builder says, 2,000 miles under 3,500 rpm. It'll be tough, but it will be. I figure, next summer at the Ozark meet, I'll be ready to really be able to potentially break an axle. I guess it is cold and rainy and I'm thinking about warmer weather. Hap, the cold got me with my family while I was skiing. The end result, I didn't beat myself up by foolishly tring to keep up with my 2 boys and am much better for it.

 

[Sarastro]

Believe me, I'd love to have your luck with the axles! But, I can attest, they do break. Mine was a cheap replacement, which explains a lot, but it replaced an original one, which presumably broke at some point too. I'm a pretty conservative driver, but the guy who broke the original one, and maybe put the fatigue cracks in the second one, may not have been. This is all speculation, of course, and in the final analysis, things just break sometimes. Often there's no obvious reason why, but it still happens. Especially to axles, I'd say...!