TR2/3/3A Mad Max seal

[sp53]

I am about ready to install my new Mad Max seal and was curious about the sealer suggested in the instructions. I will try and get it scanned, but anyway here goes:

1) Remove the sump from the engine and take out the crankshaft. Remove both halves of the original oil catcher housing.
2) Screw one of the new housings loosely to the engine block. Remove the rear bearing shell of the crankshaft and place the centering tool in the bearing position.
3) Screw the other new housing loosely to the bearing cap and bolt it to the block. The centering tool remains in its position thus assuring the correct position of both new housings.

I am ok with the first 3 out of 5 instructions

4) Smear the sealing compound to the contact surfaces of both housings and tighten the eight screws. Ensure that the centering tool is still correctly positioned. Remove the bearing cap and new housing from the engine. Remove the centering tool.

My question is do they want sealant on the back side of the new housing or where the two ends meet? Again I am just trying to understand not be a critic. The next sentence says remove the bearing cap and new housing from the engine. Ok but if I just put sealant on the ends why remove them now. Why not wait with the sealant. Plus the instructions do not say to remove the oil catcher/new housings and put sealer on the back, but it does say to put sealer on “contact surfaces” am I supposed to put sealer on the back while they are in place and loose? Plus they say to use the “the sealer’” as if some sealer came with the kit.

5) Grease the oil seal generously. Fit the oil seal to the crankshaft, taking care not to damage or overstretch the spring. Position the oil seal so that the joint/split faces upwards.
Insert the crankshaft with the oil seal into the engine. Make sure use of sufficient sealing compound on all contact surfaces when inserting the bearing cap.

To my way of thinking it would not hurt to have sealant on the back of the oil catch/new housing, but I would have to put that on earlier before I tighten the screws. I guess between steps 3 and 4 I should remover the oil catchers/new housing and put some slow drying sealant like that red goop or maybe this aviation permatex I hear about. Again, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed and I am probably missing the obvious that a machinist would not, but I just want to do it correctly.

 

[mallard]

Who did you get the seal from? If you got it from TRF or BPNW it includes a generic instruction page. I got mine from Joe and talked to him about installation. When I got my seal from him it included the 1 page instruction sheet in 3 languages and a detailed 4 page instruction form. It also has more pictures to help explain the process.

I'll try to answer some of your questions though
1 with the crank out of the car and no bearings installed smear sealant on the contact surface of the of the aluminum ring and bolt it to the engine block (do not tighten the bolts)
2 Roll a small tube of paper and put it in the drain hole so you don't clog it with sealant.
3 Install centering tool
4 Now get the bearing cap and torque it into place.
5 Smear sealant to the other half of the aluminum ring on the back contact surface, and bolt it to the bearing cap, do not put any sealant on the joining edges of the aluminum rings.
Now tap the rings together and tighten up the bolts. Wipe off any sealant that may have squeezed out. At this time I stopped for the day and let the sealer set up.

6 Next day remove bearing cap and centering tool being carefull not to damage the aluminum rings.
7 lube up and install crank bearings and then lower crank into place.
The instruction sheet that I got it said to find the joining ends of the seal spring and twist them apart so you don't stretch the spring to much when putting it of the end of the crank.
8 Install the 2 other bearing caps but do not torque them down yet.
9 Now get the seal and smear a light coat of sealer on the outside edge and carefully open it up and install over the crank end. Make sure the split in the seal is up and put a small amount of sealer on the joining ends. This will help the seal stay in place when you are done
9 I forgot to mention that you need to smear grease around the scroll area of the crank to lubricate the seal before you install the seal onto the crank.
10 Now join the two ends of the spring by screwing them back together and install on the seal.
11 Now get the bearing cap and put some sealer on the joining halves and the edge of the aluminum ring and install the bearing cap and torque down all bearing caps. Do not get any sealer on the bearing cap near the main bearings and where bolts go thru.
12 Wipe up any sealer that may have squeezed out.
13 Now get something to pry the sealer forward away from the flywheel bolts that you will install later. I used 5 wood wedges and let the sealer set up.

The sealer Joe recommended to me was Red Permatex high temp silicone gasket maker

Note on step 9 do not install to much sealer you don't want to clog the drain hole.

This seemed to work for me but my engine has only run for about 30 minutes so far.

 

[sp53]

Wow Keith that helps. I bought mine from Joe and it only came with the generic 5 step sheet in 3 languages, and I copied them word for word on the post. I called Joe and he answered, but said he was out of town and gave me his email. I ask him a few questions, but probably was not clear. He said to email him. The 4 page deal should help a lot. On your step 13 are you saying to pull the crankshaft back away from the new housing/oil catcher/seal with the crank float so things are not all jammed on the one end?

 

[mallard]

No what you need to do is push the seal forward on the crank or the lip of the seal may be in the grooves that are cut into the crank. You need to make sure the lip of the seal is running on the smooth part of the crank, and you don't want the seal touching the flywheel bolts. This is why you put the sealer on the edge of the seal to hold it into place, and not migrating back. If there is a weak spot in the design I think this may be it. I know I'm not the best at putting into words how to do things. I'm sure others will also chime in. If you can't get a copy of the instructions soon from Joe I can get a copy of them on Monday and put them in the mail. I don't have a scanner so I can't get them on the forum.

 

[sp53]

You are explaining things fine Keith. I am the one with dyslexia and being in high school in the sixties. I think I am starting to wrap my mind around it nevertheless.

On another note and down the trail a little let me ask you this; on the rear main cap and because basically a dam is being built there, how much grease or oil did you put on the bearing? It seems to me that if the oil or grease spreads out when the cap is torqued then the felt and sealer might not make a good seal at the cap body.

 

[tinman58]

I have mentioned this before, measure the length of the flywheel bolts and make sure that they will not rub against the new seal. I had this problem the first time I installed the seal. I talked to Joe about the flywheel bolts rubbing the seal, he was going to make a comment about it in the next batch of seal kits. Either grind down the bolts or use washers for the proper lenght.

 

[sp53]

Thanks Dan I will watch out for it.

 

[mallard]

Put a light coat of assembly lube on all the bearings. Any excess will squeeze out the side or into the channel in the center of the bearing, and then drip down into the sump. On the rear bearing cap the lube will run down into the sump thru the tube that drains into the sump.

 

[TR3driver]

Here are the instructions I got, possibly an earlier version, and I believe written by the inventor. They seem clear enough, but there are some sequences that are inverted (like applying the silicone sealer to the back of the seal housing before installing it over the mandrel),
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2H2NJt34OffM3dsRUotOEF2SGM/edit?usp=sharing

On the flywheel bolts, it is best if they do not protrude from the flange at all when the flywheel is installed. The original bolts were apparently sized for use with fairly thick locktabs, so they may need to be shortened (especially if you delete the locktabs entirely). If you do use washers, be sure they are high tensile (ie Grade 8). Ordinary hardware store washers may deform in use and allow the bolts to loosen even without turning.

Use a (clean) finger to smear oil on the crankshaft journals and bearing faces before installation, including where the new seal rides. It doesn't take a lot, just get it "oily". I generally just use the starter (with the plugs out) to pre-pressurize before starting the engine, but you can certainly drive the oil pump with a drill motor if you prefer.

 

[sp53]

Randall thanks again for your help. Those instructions are way better than the ones that came with the kit. If you were doing this, what type gasket sealer would you use? Some people like the silicone stuff and some do not. Where the aluminum shells bolt to the block and cap what do you think is best for that application and what would you soak the felt pieces in.

 

[PatGalvin]

Randall thanks again for your help. Those instructions are way better than the ones that came with the kit. If you were doing this, what type gasket sealer would you use? Some people like the silicone stuff and some do not. Where the aluminum shells bolt to the block and cap what do you think is best for that application and what would you soak the felt pieces in.

I used Indian Head Gasket Shellac Compound for soaking the felt pieces. Cut them into about 1" pieces so they are easy to stuff down between bearing cap and block. I bought a piece of steel stock with a square cross section and used a small hammer to drive the felt pieces down tight. Messy, but it sealed up well. You could also use WellSeal or Permatex Aviation Gasket Sealer for this - Both of those would work very well. You will run out of felt if you drive the pieces in, as I did. Moss or TRF will happily sell you a piece.
I used a gasket sealer called The Right Stuff (also available at FLAPS) to seal my oil pan all around. It works wonderfully. Others don't like to use these rubbery compounds for fear of clogging oil galleries. To each his own.

Pat

 

[sp53]

Sounds good Pat what did you use behind the aluminum pieces?

 

[TR3driver]

For the felt, I use Permatex #3 "Aviation Form-A-Gasket". Follow the directions in the book, cutting the felt into pieces about 3/4" long and soaking them in the sealer before tamping them into place. Done properly, you'll have sealer oozing from the seam (which you can wipe away afterwards). I didn't bother with the square brass "drift", just a length of 3/16" diameter rod will work fine. I've used steel rod with good luck (axle from some broken kids toy), or more recently a length of aluminum rod that used to operate the dump valve on my motorhome. Some gasket sets don't include enough felt, so it's best to have some extra on hand. TRF sells the felt separately, probably the other vendors do as well.

Since Chris specifically mentioned using silicone to 'glue' the ends of the seal together, I'll probably do it that way. I'm not usually a big fan of silicone RTV for gasket dressing, seen too many pieces of it where they shouldn't be (like in the oil pickup screen or pressure relief valve), but it works OK if you are careful to follow the instructions and use only the minimum amount required. The "Ultra Black Oil Resistant" flavor seems to work best for me, but the red "high temp" will do as well.

PS, a friend of mine and I once drove to Grand Teton National Park, so he could take a panoramic photo of the sun shining on the snow-covered peaks, while the valley was still dark. It was about 5F when we got there, according to the dash on the Buick. The heater was basically producing no heat at all; the only saving grace was the heated seats. Later, when i complained to my radiator shop, they showed me the orifice from the heater supply line, completely clogged with silicone RTV! The shop that had changed the water pump had used a little too much RTV on the water pump gasket ... A memorable experience, not to mention the inconvenience and $150 they charged me to clean up the cooling system.

 

[PatGalvin]

Sounds good Pat what did you use behind the aluminum pieces?

If you mean the aluminum piece that seals the front of the block to the oil pan, I used hylomar gasket sealant (Moss) along with those "really hard to install" cork gaskets that come with the engine rebuild gasket kit. Then used "The Right Stuff" between aluminum sealing block and the oil pan.

By the way, be sure to check the aluminum plugs on the back of the block (behind flywheel) and in the cylinder head. Both of mine leaked and each created a lot of work and expense for me to repair, after I had initially completed my rebuild. I would replace each and use a good sealant (like the oil resistant RTV). I had my machine shop install a black iron pipe plug in the cylinder head.

Pat

 

[sp53]

So I guess I could the aviation #3 on the back of the aluminum sealing shells as well.

 

[sp53]

My feelings are similar Randal with respect to silicone. I was cleaning out the large water jacket on a tr3 once and someone had used some clear silicone on the water pump and when it goosed out on the inside it formed this long clear looking worm thing and I actually was startled when I say it. The circumference of the pump made this about 10 inch worm looking thing. On another tr3 I pulled one out of a heater core almost as big.

 

[sp53]

Are you talking about the felt and gasket shellac or where the two halves of the rear main meet KVH? It has been a year or so since I put a mad max seal in, so I posted what the people said and they really helped me.

 

[KVH]

Thanks, this is helpful. But please see my questions or comments inserted below. Sounds like we're doing the same thing at the same time:

Who did you get the seal from? If you got it from TRF or BPNW it includes a generic instruction page. I got mine from Joe and talked to him about installation. When I got my seal from him it included the 1 page instruction sheet in 3 languages and a detailed 4 page instruction form. It also has more pictures to help explain the process.

I'll try to answer some of your questions though
1 with the crank out of the car and no bearings installed smear sealant on the contact surface of the of the aluminum ring and bolt it to the engine block (do not tighten the bolts)
2 Roll a small tube of paper and put it in the drain hole so you don't clog it with sealant.
3 Install centering tool
4 Now get the bearing cap and torque it into place.
5 Smear sealant to the other half of the aluminum ring on the back contact surface, and bolt it to the bearing cap, do not put any sealant on the joining edges of the aluminum rings.
Now tap the rings together and tighten up the bolts. Wipe off any sealant that may have squeezed out. At this time I stopped for the day and let the sealer set up.

6 Next day remove bearing cap and centering tool being carefull not to damage the aluminum rings.
7 lube up and install crank bearings and then lower crank into place.
The instruction sheet that I got it said to find the joining ends of the seal spring and twist them apart so you don't stretch the spring to much when putting it of the end of the crank. IS IT REALLY NECESSARY TO TAKE THE SPRING APART?
8 Install the 2 other bearing caps but do not torque them down yet.
9 Now get the seal and smear a light coat of sealer on the outside edge [DOES THIS MEAN THE FLAT EDGE OF THE VITON SEAL FACES THE CRANKSHAFT HEAL/DISC AT THE END--FACES THE REAR OF THE CAR? THE SPRING/OPEN END OF THE VITON SEAL FACES INTO THE ALUMINUM MAIN SEAL HOUSING--TO THE FRONT OF THE CAR? AND DOES THIS MEAN THE FLAT FACE OF THE VITON SEAL IS "GLUED" TO THE CRANK SO TO SPEAK?] and carefully open it up and install over the crank end. Make sure the split in the seal is up and put a small amount of sealer on the joining ends [IS THAT SEALER IN THE SPLIT REALLY GOING TO MEAN ANYTHING ONCE THE CRANK IS SPINNING AT 2500 RPMS?] This will help the seal stay in place when you are done
9 I forgot to mention that you need to smear grease around the scroll area of the crank to lubricate the seal before you install the seal onto the crank.
10 Now join the two ends of the spring by screwing them back together and install on the seal. SEE ABOVE QUESTION
11 Now get the bearing cap and put some sealer on the joining halves and the edge of the aluminum ring and install the bearing cap and torque down all bearing caps. Do not get any sealer on the bearing cap near the main bearings and where bolts go thru.
12 Wipe up any sealer that may have squeezed out.
13 Now get something to pry the sealer [PRY THE SEALER AWAY?]forward away from the flywheel bolts that you will install later. I used 5 wood wedges and let the sealer set up. NOT SURE HOW THERE'S SEALER NEAR THE FLYWHEEL BOLT HOLES?

The sealer Joe recommended to me was Red Permatex high temp silicone gasket maker

Note on step 9 do not install to much sealer you don't want to clog the drain hole.

This seemed to work for me but my engine has only run for about 30 minutes so far.

OK THANKS. JUST ME WITH QUESTIONS AS USUAL

 

[TR3driver]

Hmm, seems like the link I gave above no longer works. Thanks, Google. Here's a fresh one (with some slight changes from the seal's creator)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2H2NJt34OffdUxfdUN3cGFKUFk/view?usp=sharing

Still a few places with translation issues, but I think the updates cover most of KVH's questions.

I don't know that it is essential to unscrew the ends of the spring; but I'm guessing that came from the people who made the seal itself. Likely the concern is that the spring could be permanently distorted in the process of stretching it over the flange.

 

[KVH]

Randall, I sent you a PM on another matter, slightly time sensitive, so sorry to reference here. thx