TR2/3/3A Noisy TR3a Engine

[Vince]

This car was "hiding" in three different places since 1979. First in Cincinatti OH from 1979 until early '90's when it was sold to a guy from Hopkinsville KY. Then it was sold to Dan Gelok in 1999 and sat in his garage. Dan lives about 8 miles from me, and we met via conversation at gas station while looking at my MGB.

But the last plates were dated 1979.

 

[Vince]

I tried rocking car back/forth while in gear to see if the rotor had a zone of no movement, ie loose chain. Was not able to detect anything visually. See later posts, I am becoming convinced it is the timing chain tensioner though. Any ideas why I don't see this slop visually?

 

[CJD]

I would think that rocking the car may make it difficult to tell if or how much the engine is actually turning. Personally, I'd go right for the crank at the front of the engine (make sure the ignition is off, along with the rotor cap!) You'll know exactly how much the engine has turned, plus you will be right next to the rotor to see what's going on.

Cams will "pop" a little as each lifter comes over the top of the lobe, especially if there is play in the chain...like we suspect here. Can't wait to hear the outcome....


John

 

[sp53]

Well the tensioner is perhaps not broken completely. The tensioner is basically a metal band jammed into the cover. Often the tensioner cuts a deep grove into what is called by many the bear plate. A good way to repair the plate is fill it with weld and grind it flat.
steve

 

[PKPoole]

Hey Vince,
Given the effort to change the tensioner, I'm sure you want to be completely (as much as possible) convinced it is the problem. (I think it is). However, you might want to try this:
1: pull plugs
2: remove distributor cap
3: turn engine by hand at fan clockwise to put TC under tension.
4: Now, watch rotor as you slowly turn engine CCW and see if any delay in rotor movement. If so, tensioner is broken and not taking up slack.

This said, you still may have a TC/tensioner problem even if the rotor doesn't delay. The tensioner could be "rutted out" from TC rubbing against it and giving a rough surface contact. THe resulting noise would be amplified by the tensioner contact with the cover but still providing backlash tension. I've seen tensioners eaten through in two lines at the chain ridges but still in place. Good luck. Pat

 

[TR3driver]

If it was a tensioner somehow making the noise, then I would expect it to be much louder when listening to the timing cover, not the distributor. Have you pulled the pedestal out, and given all the gears the hairy eyeball? Might be a chipped tooth.

How much work is involved removing the apron depends a great deal on how recently it was off the car. If it hasn't been disturbed since before 1979, removing it may well turn into a major project, what with stuck bolts, nuts spinning in their cage, and so on. First time I pulled the apron from TS39781LO, I wound up using a flaming wrench on the very last bolt, which caused the Bondo to flake off.

 

[sp53]

Pulling the apron off is the only way to gain access to the radiator. Depending on the quality of your paint job would be my concern. I have pull aprons off on cars with concourse paint jobs and it is a little unsettling, but not undoable. I usually pull off the head lights and the cans first. This gives a good place to grab and better access to some bolts. I spray a lot of wd40 on the cages for the bolts, and where I can, I use a small pair of vise grips on the cage as I loosen the bolt, so the nut does not spin in the cage. The original bolts will be embossed. Another snag is where the tie at the top holds the apron down, the slit/slot becomes compressed on the four bolts, so you might have to tease that open some. I also loosen the fender bolts up along the engine compartment to help with spreading the fenders open some. Depending on how the chrome bead is attached and how much bondo there is, you can tape the bead to the fender with blue tape and actually open the hole big enough to pull the apron off without disturbing the beads too much. To help keep the fenders open you might consider cutting a piece of wood molding just large enough to hold them apart. I am sure I missed something here, but hopefully this will get you started because part of the joy of owning a tr3 is pulling the apron.
Steve

 

[martx-5]

...I also loosen the fender bolts up along the engine compartment to help with spreading the fenders open some. Depending on how the chrome bead is attached and how much bondo there is, you can tape the bead to the fender with blue tape and actually open the hole big enough to pull the apron off without disturbing the beads too much. To help keep the fenders open you might consider cutting a piece of wood molding just large enough to hold them apart...
Steve

Spreading the fenders out really does make things a lot easier. When I did the restoration, I pop-riveted the bead to the fenders in anticipation of doing this job. It makes pulling the apron a whole lot easier. Last year I pulled the apron to change the electric fan (puller), and had it off in less then an hour. Also, use anti-sieze on the blots when putting back together.

 

[TR3driver]

part of the joy of owning a tr3 is pulling the apron.

*snort*

Not to mention how you feel after you discover you didn't need to ...

 

[Vince]

I had the apron off during the restoration, so I know all the bolts are OK. I took the apron, four fenders, spare cover, and trunk lid to a bead blaster and then re-installed all of these parts. The bar at the top of the apron where it interfaces with the brackets on the upper inner fenders is a very tight fit, probably something's not aligned quite right. I am confident I can get the apron off, just don't want to do any damage to the very nice paint job.

 

[CJD]

Vince!


You're killin' us. Get that baby apart and tell us what you find!!

 

[Vince]

Sorry for the delay in getting the car apart, had the car in our local british car show last Saturday. Tonite I finished getting down to the timing chain and found.....a broken timing chain tensioner! Just as predicted by Pat Poole and CJD. Here's a link to my blog that has the pictures:

https://61tr3aproject.blogspot.com/...-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=12

As you can see in the blog, the oil slinger was also damaged. I had not ordered that part, so I'll order that too. It will take me a couple of weeks to now finish the re-assembly. I'll put another post out confirming that the noise has gone away when I've got it all back together.

 

[mrv8q]

Thanks for posting that picture. This winter I plan on redoing my timing chain/tensioner, so the pic was helpful. I'll be curious how the rest of the reassembly goes.....

Good blog spot, by the way... Your car looks great!

 

[Vince]

Well the car is back together and the engine's noise issues are resolved! I believe the root cause of my engine's problem was mis-assembly when the engine had been rebuilt sometime prior to 1979. Wish I could talk with the prior owner, but he died in 2003. Any ideas on how to contact prior owner's decendants?

So here's what heppened. On re-assembly the large bolt through the front pulley was tighted but the fit was very tight between the pulley and the crankshaft. This resulted in probably the bolt feeling tight but the pulley did not clamp down on the oil slinger. This was not seen because the oil slinger is inside the timing cover. The oil slinger then wobbled around on the crank, ruining it's ID. See the picture on the last post on my blog:

https://61tr3aproject.blogspot.com/...-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=13

It was also interesting that when I removed the pulley the large bolt had no torque on it. But this makes sense too - the pulley was jammed onto the crank when mis-assembled but not clamped down, so any later movement of the pulley along the crank would release the torque on the bolt.

Somehow the wobbling oil slinger also ended up causing the timing chain tensioner to split into two pieces. So I had a knock from the wobbling oil slinger and a ticking noise from the broken timing chain tensioner. Both noises are now gone.

I guess the only "key learning" might be to do a trial install on the pulley without the timing chain cover in place to make sure it clamps down on the oil slinger. I did that this time, so I know the new slinger it clamped down good. I also cleaned up the front end of the crank and the ID of the puley with emory cloth to make sure the pulley was free to clamp down on the oil slinger.

Thanks to everyone for your input and suggestions. Now I can continue driving the car and finding the other bugs in it from sitting since 1979!

 

[hondo402000]

its amazing, if you take things apart and install them back the same way does not insure its right, if the previous person put it back wrong you are just repeating it the wrong way. I have found that out, so its best to alway try to follow the manual if you can and look at as many pics in manuals too, if available

Hondo

 

[CJD]

Thanks for the update Vince...! I'm glad it's all figured out, and you're even back on the road in time for the leaf change this fall...

John