Making a wire wheel tubeless?

[Darrell_Walker]

With the recent discussions about tires, does it take anything more than sealing the spoke ends to make a wire wheel able to be used without a tube? Could you just slather the ends with some RTV? I realize that you couldn't then adjust the spokes without potentially breaking the seal, but are there other reasons that wouldn't work?

 

[Guest]

Not a good idea.Spokes have to flex.

 

[SkinnedKnuckles]

Actually, I did that about 9 or 10 years ago, and it's worked pretty well. There was some experimentation to get it right, though.

Clean all the spoke pits with mineral spirits, then acetone to get all oil outta there.

Use a good quality silicone - I really like the Locktite Ultra 'Stick & seal'

Don't "slather". The silicone just needs to cover the spoke end. You don't want the silicone to protrude out of the spoke pocket - if it does there's a good chance the tire bead, when mounted, will disturb the seal.

I did this with new wheels that really shouldn't need adjustment, and have been through 1 tire change. I have no idea how it might work on older wheels. Be prepared for a few leakers - get a big C clamp and a couple of pieces of wood to get into a tire if need be. After all those years I have 1 wheel that loses 1 psi pressure every 2 weeks and can't find the leak. The others hold.

 

[TR3driver]

The Dayton "tubeless" wire wheels do something similar, except the entire valley above the spoke ends is filled, and it's rather harder than common RTV (though still somewhat flexible).

I think it may actually bond to the wheel well enough to allow the spokes to be adjusted without breaking the seal, but haven't had occasion to test that theory yet.

 

[racingenglishcars]

As I remember, there is no safety ridge of the wire wheel, therefore not a good idea to run without tubes, that is if you are going to do some hard cornering.

 

[Murieta]

I know smarter ways for suicide.

 

[Twosheds]

The Dayton "tubeless" wire wheels do something similar, except the entire valley above the spoke ends is filled, and it's rather harder than common RTV (though still somewhat flexible).

I put Dayton tubeless wire wheels on the TR3 racecar. Dunlop Racing tyres.

They didn't hold air and I put tubes back in. I don't know where the air was leaking out, though. Might not have been through the spokes.

 

[TR3driver]

They didn't hold air and I put tubes back in. I don't know where the air was leaking out, though. Might not have been through the spokes.

The ones on the Stag do seem to lose air a bit faster than I would expect a solid wheel to do. It's been parked for what, 6 years now, and all 4 tires are totally flat. But it took probably 6 months before the LR started looking flat, so that's pretty good.

But for contrast, the spare on a stock TR3 wheel that I last filled in probably 2002 still had enough air to be usable in 2010.

PS, I've been driving cars without "safety beads" or tubes since 1968 or so. (Bought my first car when I was 15, drove it home on worn out tubeless tires and no safety beads.) Been in some major accidents, gone full sideways or spun out more times than I care to count, come close to flipping over once or twice. Never once have I had a tire roll off the rim, even after deliberately driving on a flat tire (to get to a safe place to change it).

But I have come close to losing control, rounding a mountain corner near a steep cliff, because a tube "blew out". IMO adding a tube decreases safety, even without a safety bead. Not to mention the side effects of hearing a gunshot under the car!

The auto industry also hailed the tubeless tire as a safety advance, even though safety beads didn't come until later, precisely because they couldn't "blow out".

 

[DNK]

[...

But for contrast, the spare on a stock TR3 wheel that I last filled in probably 2002 still had enough air to be usable in 2010.

Bummer on the flat

 

[TR3driver]

Bummer on the flat

No worries, those tires are old enough to require replacement before I can drive the car anyway. The real bummer is that the poor thing has been sitting so long, and is likely to stay that way for several more years. At the rate I'm moving on the projects in front of it, I'll probably retire first.

 

[TR3driver]

[...

But for contrast, the spare on a stock TR3 wheel that I last filled in probably 2002 still had enough air to be usable in 2010.

Bummer on the flat

Oh, you mean the flat in 2010? There wasn't one, that was just the next time I checked it, when I transferred it from the wrecked TR3A to the 'new' TR3.

 

[Member 10617]

Randall,

You say that adding a tube decreases safety, but if we are running wire wheels, what choice do we have. It's commonly said that tubeless tires on wire wheels won't hold air? I'd like to have solid steel wheels, but the original type are hard to find, usually suspect if used, and present their own problems.

Regarding the near crashes that you've had, was speed a factor? I was told by some long-time TR3 drivers that tubes in tubeless tires are OK, as long as you don't do 80... or even over about 60-65.

 

[sail]

Regarding the near crashes that you've had, was speed a factor?

Probably just the curve.

 

[TR3driver]

You say that adding a tube decreases safety, but if we are running wire wheels, what choice do we have.

Not much, other than
either buying the "tubeless" wire wheels from Dayton, or trying to seal them up yourself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Regarding the near crashes that you've had, was speed a factor?[/QUOTE]
Pretty much always :laugh: Only exception I can think of is that blowout in Big Sur, and that wasn't with a TR3. And I'd say that speed was only a secondary factor that time the lug nuts worked loose.
<span style="font-style: italic">Oh, wait,</span> what am I thinking? There have been literally hundreds of close calls caused by someone else trying to drive through where I was, and speed was never a factor there. In fact when the TR3A got totaled, I was fully stopped just before that SUV plowed into me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] I was told by some long-time TR3 drivers that tubes in tubeless tires are OK, as long as you don't do 80... or even over about 60-65. [/QUOTE]
Yes, it's "OK", even at higher speeds, in my opinion. I was more responding to the comment above about tubeless tires being dangerous on rims without safety beads.

And, as we've discussed before, your driving habits are the complete opposite end of the spectrum from mine. I generally hit 75 mph just on the way to work, and I have gone rather faster on occasion.

 

[Member 10617]

I consider "the other guy," in fact, to be the greatest danger to us in these cars. That is why I get out of town and on to little traveled back roads as quickly as possible when I drive. Driving through town, especially a college and tourist town such as the one I live in, is like negotiating a wild maze. It reminds me sometimes of taxi rides I used to take in Tokyo in the late 1950s. You take your life in your hands, literally: careless drivers, drivers texting and on phones, people throwing their doors open on narrow streets, trucks too wide for the streets, etc.

However, I went 110 mph in a TR3A once back in 1962 while driving across Oklahoma -- outrunning a tornado -- and I'll never do that again. (I just now noticed the words on your illustration above... after I reported on my own 110. Yes.. indeed... they can do that... or used to do it.)

Best road in the world for these cars -- other than the Pacific Highway (is that the name?), is the Blue Ridge Parkway.

BTW. should I ask? What is a safety bead? I have no idea if I have such a thing or not. Perhaps I don't want to know.

 

[TR3driver]

Yes.. indeed... they can do that... or used to do it.)

Mine still can, or at least will when I get the OD repaired and back in.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Best road in the world for these cars -- other than the Pacific Highway (is that the name?),
[/QUOTE]
I suppose you mean Pacific Coast Highway. It's not bad, out away from town at least, but there is still too much traffic for my tastes. And for probably 100 miles in either direction from where I am, it's a 4 or 6 lane highway, with rush hour traffic jams and so on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]BTW. should I ask? What is a safety bead? I have no idea if I have such a thing or not. Perhaps I don't want to know. [/QUOTE]
Hmm, I'm not sure how to answer that, then. But IMO if you are going to drive one of these cars, you should have a realistic understanding that it's not the safest car on the road. I wouldn't call it a death trap either, it was a very sound little car by the standards of the 50s, but automotive standards have changed considerably since then. If the Corvair was "Unsafe at Any Speed", the TR3 is worse.

So ... a "safety bead" is a feature on the wheel, inside the tire, that is supposed to help keep the tire from coming off the rim when driving with a flat tire (eg immediately after a blowout). Unless you have aftermarket wheels, you most likely don't have them. IIRC they didn't come into common usage until the late 60s, and some cars lacked them even into the 70s. Since tubeless tires were in common usage even back in the 50s, pretty clearly a safety bead is not a requirement to run a tubeless tire.

 

[Darrell_Walker]

Here is an illustration of the safety bead:

https://www.snowtrek.org/images/safety-bead.jpg

 

[Member 10617]

Randall,

My wheels, according to the fellow through whom I purchased the car, were put on the car new in 2006 or 2007. They are 60-spoke wire wheels, painted. I have to assume they have the safety bead.

Moreover, I feel certain the shop that did all the work on the car -- where they restore these cars, Jags, Allards, MGs, Morgans, etc. -- would have warned me to get new wheels were they unsafe.

I do mean the Pacific Coast Highway. I've only seen it in photos and movies. Your description gives me an idea of what it is really like, but I'm sure some of it is beautiful. As a kid in Tucson, Arizona, we always dreamed of driving the Pacific Coast Highway in a sports car.

Yes, clearly these little cars -- with not much protection and weak midships, narrow, low to the ground, no modern crumple zone, no airbags, a vunerable braking system, gas tank right behind the seats, etc., -- have a certain danger to them. That's why it is not my daily driver, and that's why I don't drive over 50 mph (better at 45) if I can help it. That's no certain protection, of course, but at least it gives me a fighting chance. I don't drive in the rain; I don't drive at night; I don't drive on the Interstate or other major highways. You'll only find me on the byways of this rural part of Virginia. On the other hand, my many friends who drive motorcycles are taking a far greater risk, in my estimation. And when I was a teenager and drove scooter in Tucson traffic, I always had the strong feeling that each drive would be my last (not even any helmets in those days).

To put this all in perspective, my wife rides horses: fox hunting and endurance riding. Here in western Virginia, chasing on horseback after foxes (actually 9.999 times out of ten it's a bear, or a coyote, or a deer and not a fox) up and down our steep hills, in rain and snow and ice and mud, jumping over fences and coops, makes riding in a Triumph a Sunday stroll in the park.

And for downright hair-raising danger, nothing can beat flying around eastern Europe in converted Soviet Tupolev Tu-16s. I always laughed when the stewardess gave her "safety" speel when we were taking off to cross the ice jammed Baltic Sea in the middle of winter and at night! Ha.

Darrell. Thanks for the photo. I've never seen my wheels with the tires off, so I can't confirm the safety bead, but I feel certain it is there.

 

[Got_All_4]

Darrel

New modern wire wheels come tubless and the inside the spoke ends are fill with a urethane sealer and bonder. Many of the new wheels for domestic cars come from the factory untrued. I've seen the process at some of my customers that do the custom wheels where they have to strip out the urethane, true up the spokes and reapply the sealant. big job!
RTV silicones does not bond to the metal like urethanes do. In fact some single stag urethanes have a bonding rating up to 1800 pounds per square inch. Silicones will never match that and have a tendency to shrink too. I wonder if you tried it and had small leaks if a can of tire seal would fix it?

 

[Member 10617]

I was wrong about the date of purchase of my wheels. They were purchased from the Roadster Factory in 1999, not 2006 or 2007, but still modern enough certainly to have the saftey bead (don't you think?). They are fitted with brand new Vredestein tires (Sprint + S80 Radial Steel Tubeless, 165 R15 86S. Not top of the line, but very good quality.