Hi everyone, frame question.

[j2bates]

Hi everbody, Ive had my '73 TR6 since '91 and about 3 months after I bought it I decided that it should be torn apart and rebuilt from the ground up. I was just out of tech school and thought it would be a great winter project (sound familiar to anyone?). So now its 2006 and can't stand seeing the car this way. I have done stuff over the years, but now I'm probably going to redo some of what I did when I was young and inexperienced. My question is the frame, the doors won't line up with the rear fenders unless I jack the body up about 2 inches in the back (its not bolted to the frame). I have the workshop manual that came with the car, and it has frame dimensions in it but the reference line, or datum line is difficult to see where to place it. If I did measure it correctly, then the rear of frame is very low. Can anyone confirm where this datum line is located above the frame?
Thanks John

 

[Dale]

Glad to be the first to welcome you to the best forum on the net. And to the best page (Triumph) on the forum. I can't be of help on your specific problem save to make a lame pun about your being framed. But you can bet your bippy that there are many here with a wealth of TR6 knowledge that will be in here as soon as they catch up with us. Good Luck and keep us posted. (oops another lame one) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi,

It's possible you have a weakened frame.

However, there is one other thing to check, first. There are many rubber pads and aluminum spacers used at all bod-to-frame mounting points on all TRs. Are these installed on your car? The doors are especially especially effected by the pads on the outriggers. But, there is a lot of adjustment possible at all the mounting points.

If you are using stacks of pads and still see a lot of misalignment, it unfortunately might mean the frame itself is in trouble. The IRS cars tend to "hump up" in the middle as the frame gets old and tired. Usually the door gaps at the B-post open at the top, and more of the rear of the frame can be seen under the rear valance.

If this is what's happened to yours, it likely needs the "T-shirt" replaced in the center, and I'd look for any other signs of weakness, rust or tweaking. There may be other areas of weakness contributing to the problem. In the IRS frame, rust tends to begin in the rear and work its way forward.

Portions of the frame can be replaced and it can be reinforced for strength. Weld quality needs to be good and is best done a little at a time, so that one portion of the frame doesn't overheat and warp.

By the way, while the body is off have you reinforced the differential mountings?

Hope this helps!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[j2bates]

Thanks for the replies, yes all of the frame pads and spacers are in place. I should have included this with the original post, the floors and rockers are new, everything was measured and put back to its original location. Then when I test fit with the frame I put the proper number of rubber and steel spacers, it may have had more spacers in some areas before I took it apart, I can't recall. So my problem is this, is the frame straight and I missed something doing the rockers? Or do I need to tweak the frame to match the body? I guess comparing to a known good frame would be ideal.
Yes the diff. mounts will be reinforced.

Thanks, John

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi again John,

After that sort of work is done on the body, it's entirely possible the number of pads and spacers need to be changed to re-align the frame and body. Removing and replacing panels such as the frame and rockers (especially the rockers) can change the shape of the body a little.

Did you use a lot of cross-bracing before removing things? I've not done it, but have often heard that when repairing IRS body panels it's best to have the body sitting on the frame and the frame supported by the car's suspension. Was that done? This is due to some tendency for the original frames to flex, more-so than the early "ladder" frames.

Do you recall the fit of the body before the car was disassembled so many years ago, or did you happen to take photos? If this misalignment was a pre-existing condition, I'd be more likely to suspect the frame needs work. If the fit was good before disassembly, then it's more likely problems with the work on the body or just alignment of the two that's needed.

A couple other things to check, body-related: look closely at the base of the the A- and B-posts. When floors and rockers rust out, there is also often damage at the base of the B-post in particular. It's often hidden behind the vinyl trim on the inside and the fender on the outside.

Yes, a 2nd, known/good frame would be an ideal test. Is there a Triumph club in your area with other folks doing restorations? Might be a good source of a loaner frame. Members of the club who are experienced with TRs also might be able to take a look at your car and spot the problem, too. They often work for beer and pizza!

Also, there are frame & body shops around my area that specialize in this sort of thing, perhaps in your area too. They are set up to take a bare or nearly bare frame and evaluate it against factory drawings and then do any necessary straightening and repair. Might be helpful.

It's not easy to check a frame at home on the typical garage floor and without some special tools such as a very long straightedge or laser alignment equipment. You need to find someone who is knowledgeable about older style cars, with separate frames, and not modern uni-body cars. Might be worth a little expense, just for the peace of mind knowing that your car has a sound foundation as a starting point.

One good thing... if really needed, there are brand-new, replacement frames available for TR6 and other IRS cars (not for my TR4). This is not cheap, of course, but replacment can be the ideal or only solution at times. Ratco is a frame supplier and advertises on BCF. Look for their links and check out their website, if you wish.

Before replacing, I'd try to get a pro to look over an existing frame and recommend whether it can be saved/used or not.

If you don't already have it, Roger William's "Restoring Triumph TR5, 250, 6" is a good book you might find helpful. He also has written "Improving TR5, 250 & 6" if you are interested in modifications and not concerned about originality.

Hope this helps.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[trfourtune]

hi,
just to add to alan's comments. first you need a triumph tr6 frame dimension drawing. if you do not have one, get one. my original tr4 shop manual has mine in it. if you have a shop and some steel blocks (like anvils- 4 minimum)set them on the floor,level them and shim them to the exact same level .this is a two man job. this is where a lazer level is required or use a surveying level and shoot the elevations-you can rent these fairly cheaply. you will have to attach a very fine scale to your stick, such as a machinists ruler, using the fine scale. now set your frame on the blocks. weight only two (2) opposing diagonal corners. check if the other 2 are contacting or if only one. if only one, your twisted (just like the rest of us). hold one of these corners down so that 3 corners are held. measure all the dimensions per the manual within 1/64 th of an inch. use your surveying level to measure all the height dimensions as well as if the frame is humped. record all dimensions. if you find any dimensions out (how much depends or where the dimension is) the it would be best to pack up your frame and take it to a frame shop. show them your numbers. they can then tell you roughly what it will cost. if its too far gone they will or should tell you. remember that these frames twist and bend more than 1/8" while driving. your towers need to be exact however. frames (steel) has a memory so cold twisting back to shape does not always fix the problem. the frame will tend to return to its shape in time unless certain points are heated when twisting back to shape. talk to the frame shop. this will help with your decision as to what to do.
good luck
rob

 

[trfourtune]

ps-remember to check for cracks in your rear trailing arms.
rob

 

[j2bates]

Thanks all,
I will be checking everything this weekend. I picked up a laser level last Saturday but it wouldn't stop raining. I did find some pictures of the rear of the car just after I bought it and a good bit of the frame is showing, so that leads me to believe that I should find some sag in it.
John

 

[j2bates]

turns out it is (or was) the frame. the laser level worked great, and i found the very rear of the frame about an inch too low. so, being the "i want to fix everything on the car myself" kind of guy i am, i drilled two holes into the garage floor and installed threaded studs to hold the frame down, then after heating up the frame just behind the trailing arms used two floor jacks to bend the frame up, and it worked! the frame is now in spec and a test fit of the body showed all the gaps looking very nice. i'll probably weld some reinforcement into that area so no further problems (like the frame snapping in two) arise. now i can look forward to a couple of months of bodywork!
John.

 

[tdskip]

Wow - way to go John!