Gasoline with 10% ethanol

[lpool15]

Any thoughts on the new Gas coming out with 10% ethanol in a TR4 engine??

 

[Geo Hahn]

Isn't this what is routinely sold during the winter months in many parts of the country?

I think I've been using it for years w/o a problem.

 

[guzzul]

Ethanol is more acidic. New cars will not have problems, but I would be worried about TR's fuel lines, carb bodies, and possible damage to other components like fuel pump, fuel guage sender, etc.

I would avoid it.

 

[lpool15]

No choice here, Good thought on the acid. I work for an oil comp. Will do more research and update later.

 

[lpool15]

From my lads in the lab

Watch your banjo bolts on SU's with rubber grommets, They could disolve.....Also:
To match the detonation characteristics of gasoline at high-power settings, the utilization of ethanol-based fuels requires fuel-flow volume increases of nearly 40%. This means that currently-published performance information is not accurate when using ethanol-based fuels.
Ethanol-based fuels are not compatible with some fuel system components. Examples of extreme corrosion of ferrous components, the formation of salt deposits, jelly-like deposits on fuel strainer screens, and internal separation of portions of rubber fuel tanks have been observed in some vehicles using ethanol fuels.
The use of ethanol-based fuels can negatively affect electric fuel pumps by increasing internal wear and undesirable spark generation. &
is not compatible with capacitance fuel level gauging indicators and may cause erroneous fuel quantity indications in vehicles that employ that system.
Ethanol mixed with gas is capable of dissolving large amounts of water at conditions down to -77°, thereby impeding the detection and removal of water from the fuel system.[citation needed]
Ethanol may block fuel filters, thereby affecting fuel flow. & experiences heavy evaporation losses.

 

[77_MG_Midget]

I'm no expert, but from what I know, 10% ethanol is not enough to hurt anything. Out here on the west coast, that's all you can get year round.

I'd think that as long as you have hardened valve seats for unleaded fuel, you wouldn't have a problem.

As far as strictly the motor is concerned, it won't care. The ethanol is hard on rubber components of the fuel system though, but I don't think 10% is enough to damage anything. That's why you can't run E-85 in any vehicle that isn't a flex-fuel vehicle. Flex-Fuel vehicles have different compounds in the fuel system components to keep the alcohol from deteriorating the fuel lines, etc.

From that I've read though, the more ethanol, the lower the HP and gas milage. Ethanol just doesn't have the thermal power of gasoline. So, even running say E-85 (if you could), really isn't any cheaper than regular gasoline because it takes more of it (due to lower fuel economy) to run the car.

 

[lpool15]

Anyone know of a replacement type grommets fo th Banjo bolt on SU's

 

[lpool15]

My SU's banjo bolts start weeping since NH started using the 10% ethanol gas. I am taking them into my lab at work to find out if it's the gas. I also find no aparent power loss using 93 octane. My boys tell me to watch out for effects on brass,copper and bronze. Ask for copper corrosion spec on the gas you use if you can get it.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Ditto on all of the above. I can only add that four years ago, during my NY-MN-NY round trip, I encountered a few places with ethanol-blend fuel and had no trouble with it. This in a Solex-carb Herald 1200 that, to my knowledge, has never been "upgraded" with hardened seats, etc., and has yet to suffer any ill effects in my 25,000 miles with it on unleaded.

 

[ObiRichKanobi]

My last few non-LBC cars ran horrible on the stuff, with a 10-15% hit on fuel economy. Only used it when I had no choice, and then ran it out and refilled with straight gas as soon as possible.

 

[RomanH]

We have been running the stuff in Illinois for at least 20 years. We have no choice here. It's use is mandated by the government to increase the oxygen content of the fuel and for reduced emissions. While the economy suffers from the lower specific energy of ethanol it is not that bad 5-10% depending on the vehicle.
I have used regular unleaded with 10% ethanol in an un modified 1967 Dodge as well as a 1976 Japanese car without any problems. Not once did I have to replace a fuel line or any other fuel system component due to an adverse reaction from the fuel.
Lpool, the information given to you by the lads in the lab sounds to me to be about E85 fuel. E85 is an ethanol-based fuel composed of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. This is definitely not the same as 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol. You should never pump E85 into one of our old cars, (or any car that is not designed to use it) it could be catastrophic! But the info from your lab is only for E85 as it is completely unnecessary to increase the fuel flow to make the car run.
There has been a similar thread on this forum before and honestly I think that all of you who have never used a 10% blend fuel are panicking needlessly.

 

[billspit]

I suspect pretty much all gasoline these days has some ethanol in it since they have now banned MTBE.

 

[Simon TR4a]

Here in Canada Sunoco blends ethanol into their gas, and I have used the 94 octane for the last 9 yearts in my TR4a with no ill effects. I also use the regular 87 octane in my wife's Spit whernever possible, largely because they support some of our club events.
It says on ther pumps "may contain up to 10% ethanol"; (it may be 15%, I am relying on memory here!)

So I can't discuss the chemistry, but it does seem to work fine in practice.
Simon.

 

[Keoke]

RomanH;

I think you hit the nail right on the head. If all those problems The Lab Boys presented were reality there would not be a LBC alive and runing here on the west coast. Have no fear you will not even notice the difference.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi all,

I don't know the exact formulas, but at least for the urban areas here in N. Calif., I've heard and am convinced there are at least two different blends being used: Summer and Winter. The changes are made as an anti-polution measure, supposedly optimizing emissions for cooler or warmer weather.

I can always tell exactly when the switch is made at the pumps. My Land Rover's mileage drops 15% or so on the Winter blend (or improves 15% on the Summer blend, if you're a "glass is half full" kinda person). I watch the LR's mileage closely (with varying degrees of horror) and I've noticed this over a number of years, even when that nasty MTBE was still part of the blend.

Whether the change in formulas includes more or less ethanol at any given time, I dunno.

But, is it worth worrying about? If you are going to drive and enjoy your old car, do you really have any choice but to use what's available and fix the car if there is a problem?

Hmmm.... I did notice a local station has started offering racing fuel, but am afraid to ask the price!

 

[JFS]

During the last four years most of the local stations have offered only 10% ethanol blend. This summer I have found two Mobil stations that advertise "pure gas, no ethanol." My first tank of 10% blend took out the electric (points type) fuel pump in my TR3 a number of years ago, so I switched to a Facet pump -- no problem. After monitoring mpg in my TR3, TR8 and VW Eurovan I have found a consistent 2 - 3 mpg drop with the 10% blend. I use only the "pure" gas available locally since my TR3 experience, but have had no choice but to use the blended gas when travelling. The "pure" gas is frequently a cent or two cheaper, too.

 

[TRTEL]

If you live in a damp climate/ high humidity try to keep the fuel as fresh as possible. Ethanol is very hygroscopic, sucks water out of the atmosphere. The higher the content 15vs 10% the worse the problem. (Which is part of the corrosion consideration, especially when you have unlike metals in contact, ie brass and aluminum alloys in carbs, fuel pumps, etc. causing a battery type reaction.) Some rubbers and polymers just aren't as happy around alcohols. All you can do is pay your money and take your chances. I work with fuel delivery systems on a daily basis and the switch is causing problems for stations that have never dispensed it before. And it's been awhile since I saw the numbers, but I believe ethanol has about a third the BTU content of gasoline.
Tom Lains
TS8651
TS58107

 

[lpool15]

You're right my boy's in my lab were using E-85 as a basis. I told them off and they scurried about apologising to me all day. Some times that's a good thing. Anyway I wish we had 94 octane here. The lads tell me that ( with red faces) 10% is ok, but long term exposure could effect rubber fittings. Nice discussion though, Thanks.

 

[bobh]

77 MG was correct. Alcohol has less energy than gas, about 1/2 the BTU's per volume. Road and Track (I believe) ran an article back in the late 70's or 80's about Indy cars. They talked about the fuel and it's BTU content. That's where I first heard the approximate 1/2 figure.
Like Alan I track my mileage pretty closely. I found a 2 to 3 mpg loss when running gasahol in my Toyota truck in 1981. The truck got 20 to 30 mpg depending on the driving.
In the early '80s when gasahol first appeared on a large scale there were plenty of reports about older cars having problems. Alcohol was eating the rubber seals. there were quite a few articles about the problems in auto magazines and news papers. The auto manufacturers started building cars with seals that were not affected by alcohol, although many owners manuals still stated that the max allowable alcohol content was 10%. After the controversy It was hard to find any gasahol for quite a few years. In the last 5 or 6 years I noticed the discount gas stations were selling the 90/ 10 blends. Now it is becoming more widespread. There is a law in South Dakota saying all fuel must be 10% alcohol. It serves multiple purposes. One is the cleaner nature of the fuel. the other is that much of the state is farm country. They grow corn. The farmers benefit from having a steady buyer for their crops. (source: my wife, born and raised in SD)
If and when E85 becomes available on a wider basis there are only a few cars that will run on it. Most cars on the road today will not be able to use it. Brazil recently declared itself free from dependancy on foreign oil. I believe all of their cars are capable of running on dual fuel. Gas or alcohol.
With modern engines being controlled by computers it sounds like a fairly easy task to set them up to run on either fuel. (Although not easy enough for me)