Europa- Buying Guidelines wanted

[JamesWilson]

I've a chance to buy a 1970 Ltous Europa S2 project, partially restored, and in boxes.

Any hints on what to be on the look-out for would be appreciated. Areas susceptible to problems or difficulty in obtaining replacement parts, etc.

I believe this will/should have the Renault engine. How difficult would it be to upgrade to a twin-cam, or to modify the Renault to get similar performance if possible? Would it be worthwhile economically or practically?

Thanks.

 

[DrEntropy]

ACK!! If it's a "Ree-no" pass it by... the T/C cars had the butresses notched down for a somewhat improved rear visibility (that's how you can tell which is which). You ain't gonna get a Renault Europa to go like a T/C. A '70 would likely be the French engined one.

...but if the price is right it STILL can be a fun car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Esprit2]

The Twin Cam engine is significantly wider at the timing chest and the Europa TC's chassis was widened to accept it. Installing a Twink in a Renault powered Europa S1 or S2 would require notching the chassis to the extent that it's structural integrity would be affected. If you want a Twin Cam engine, buy a Europa Twin Cam. If you buy the S2 you're better off pursuing engine mods on the stock lump.

A Renault with a Gordini crossflow head and Dellorto/ Weber carbs can put out as much power as the Twink and it weighs less.

The chassis is folded up out of 14 & 16 guage steel. There's not much metal in it and that which is there is important. Look for rust damage. If there are bad spots that make you think it needs to be repaired, replace it instead.

Look for cracks were the chassis' central back bone joines the front cross member and the rear legs. Also where the front suspension pivots are welded into the crossmember.

Other Renault transmissions can be used, or 336 transmissions from non-Lotus applications. But there are a few Lotus only pars in the Lotus version that are no longer available... like the output shaft stubs. If you do a transplant, be sure to harvest all the Lotus parts before scrapping the old gearbox.

Good luck,
Tim Engel

 

[JamesWilson]

This is useful.

The Gordini head is crossflow- is that an obvious difference from the other? or if they're both cross-flows is there some way to distinguish between them?

I've been to our local library but its kind of short on Lotus manuals (or anything at all on Lotus) from 35 years ago....

 

[Esprit2]

Actually, the Renault can be made to go faster than the Twin Cam... assuming you don't have a Formula Atlantic budget. Gordini crossflow heads and performance parts are available that will easily make the Renault engine competitive with the Twink. Plus, piston and liner sets are available for the Renault that increase the displacement to levels the iron-block Twink can't attain.

Renault used to sell plug-n-play crate motors that were hot rod versions of the Europa engine, generating 165 hp out of the box. Good luck finding one now, but the potential is there. The basic engine line is also available in larger displacements up to approx 2.2 liters and in a turbo version. And a few of the turbos have found their way into Europa S2's.

Okay, the speed parts are getting harder to find, but then, so are Twin Cam parts.

I've owned two S2's and two Twin Cams. My current Europa is a 69 Mk 54 S2 with about 110 Hp. That's close to the stock Federal Europa TC's claimed 113 Hp, and the foughly 100 lbs lighter weight actually give the S2 an advantage.

More important than power (early Lotus cars are all about handling more than power), the Europa S1 was the pure, no compromises version. Each "improvement" after that added weight and compromised suspension geometry. The S1 weighed about 1350 lbs, the S2 was 1470 lbs, and the Twin cam was 1565 lbs. In that weight range, that's a huge percentage increase and the difference is very noticeable. A 150 Hp Gordini in an S1 would be a killer sports car.

Handling is the most racecar like in the earlier cars, especially in Euro spec. Federal cars were jacked up on their suspensions to satisfy bumper and headlight mandates and that had a negative affect on handling. With Renault powered S1 & S2, rectifying that is a simple matter of lowering the car back to Euro spec. With the S1, you don't even have to buy new springs. Just flip the lower control arm over.

For the Europa TC, Lotus gave in to the reality of a higher ride height and re-designed the chassis accordingly. They also too advantage of the opportunity to lower the floor 1.5" to increase headroom. So, in a Twin Cam, you cannot lower the car like you can the S1 & S2. You can lower it a little, but not to the early cars racer stance.

By the time the TC came out, Lotus had also dialed a lot of understeer into the handling to keep Ralph Nader at bay.

All in all, if you want a quick "oh-my-gawd" sports car, get the earliest, Euro spec Europa you can find and hot rod the motor.

If you want a more comfortable cruiser with more interior head room, more room for large shoe sizes, and fewer hassles from the police about bumper/headlight compliance, buy a Europa Twin Cam.

S1 & Mk 54 S2 are more Euro-like. The Mk 65 S2 is the Federal-spec S2 modified fenders to raised the headlights a bit. Late Mk 65's (after Sept 1971 also contain some Twin Cam parts, like the front suspension plus abnormally long springs to jack-up the ride height). But even then, the late Mk 65 could still be lowered back down to Euro ride height with a simple change of springs.

The Twin Cam's suspension geometry was altered such that lowering the car very much created some unusual angles in the control arms, killing the advantage of going lower.

Twin Cams might be more stylish if you're concerned about being "seen". But the S1/ S2 are the models to have if you want to experience the Lotus chassis dynamic in it's most pure form.

Regards,
Tim Engel

 

[DrEntropy]

i *really* think you'd be tossin' good money after bad with the early Europa... and I've had thirty years of Lotus ownership and worked on 'em (the early cars especially) for my bean money. Eschew the S-2, and *patiently* wait for a T/C if you truly WANT a Europa... but that's just the way I think.

The Gordini head was GREAT for the French engine when it was contemporary... and as Tim points out: there are parts you will NEVER be able to replace (at reasonable money) today.

 

[Esprit2]

[ QUOTE ]
The Gordini head is crossflow- is that an obvious difference from the other? or if they're both cross-flows is there some way to distinguish between them?

I've been to our local library but its kind of short on Lotus manuals (or anything at all on Lotus) from 35 years ago....

[/ QUOTE ]

The stock Renault engine is a wedge-head with the intake and exhaust manifolds on the left side. The Gordini is a Hemi-head with the dual Dellorto/Weber carbs on the right side and the exhaust on the left.

There are lots of books available on Lotus, both the Marque and the individual models. All the manuals are also still available new or used on eBay. Any of the independent Lotus parts suppliers can set you up with manuals, and many of them carry Lotus and model-specific books. Or contact Motorbooks International (Classic Motorbooks) and ask for a copy of their catalog. They dont carry manuals, but lots of histories and buyers guides.

The manuals are downloadable in PDF format from several private sites on the internet. Given this forum's policy on observing copyrights, I'll just sugget that you spend some time searhing Yahoo and Google for Europa manuals.

Common US vendors, JAE, Dave Bean Engineering, r. d. Enterprises, Sports Car World... and more.

Regards,
Tim Engel

 

[Esprit2]

[ QUOTE ]
i *really* think you'd be tossin' good money after bad with the early Europa... and I've had thirty years of Lotus ownership and worked on 'em (the early cars especially) for my bean money. Eschew the S-2, and *patiently* wait for a T/C if you truly WANT a Europa... but that's just the way I think.

The Gordini head was GREAT for the French engine when it was contemporary... and as Tim points out: there are parts you will NEVER be able to replace (at reasonable money) today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Opinions are plentiful. Eventually you will have to make up your own mind based on your own priorities.

It sounds like DrEntropy has lots of experience to back up his opinions. But I've been a Lotus fan since 1962, a fulltime owner for 32 years (never had less than two), I've got 220,000 miles of total seat time in four Europas (two S2's and two Twin Cams), and I've done all my own wrench work and most of the local club's.

I've got opinions too, and they're only relavent to my goals for the car. But it's your goals and opinions that will count when it comes time to make the purchase. Don't let anyone else drive you to a car if you're the one who will be driving it.

Compared to an MGB/ Triumph budget level, any Lotus will be a money pit. Lotus-only parts are always expensive, and any common part like a Lucas bit is twice as expensive if you buy it through Lotus dealers (a cross-reference list is a valuable tool). Independent Lotus parts suppliers like JAE are much better about providing common parts at real-world prices.

The Europa purchase price will be much less for the S1-S2 than a Twin Cam. Due to the Renault engine, S1-S2's aren't viewed as true-Lotus by collector purists. All else being equal, a Twin Cam will cost significantly more to purchase just based on collectability and popularity. The TC will offer little in the way of amenities over an S2, will not handle as well (100 lbs heavier and jacked up), and a Renault engine can be hotrodded to more street-power than a Twink for less cost than a straight overhaul on a Twink.

Once you're past the price of admission, both S1-S2 Renault and Twink Europas will be expensive to restore and maintain compared to more common British sports cars like MG or Triumph. And the Twin Cam will cost even more due to the more expensive engine bits.

Twinks have more blue-sky collector value, so if you're thinking of getting your money back when you sell... go Twink. If you want a driving experience and can't imagine ever selling it, go Renault. If you want a comfortable cruiser for Sunday wicker picnic basket afternoons and car shows, if a Miata is your version of "roughing it", then go Twin Cam. If you think of Lotus Sevens and Elevens as street cars and really want a 4-wheeled motorcycle, go S1-S2.

Make a list of British cars rank-ordered from best handling to worst, and the Europa TC will be right up near the top. Moving up the list, one car that can beat the TC on handling is the S2. A car that can beat the S2 on handling is the S1. The sibling's order reverse when ranked by comfort and amenities.

The "best car" is purely a function of what your goals and expectations are for it.

The Renault Europas are the least expensive Lotus to play with. Back in the day, the Elan was the main Lotus offering and the Europa S1 was intentionally designed to be the low cost, entry level model. It was also intended to by Lotus foot-hold in the then-new European Common Market... hence, the Renault pushrod engine & gearbox.

The Europa Twin Cams cost more to restore & maintain because the Lotus-only engine bits are stupid expensive, not because the basic car design changed significantly in expensive ways.

The later 907/910 engine powered cars cost still more because the Lotus-only content ($$) went way up. Especially in the fully Lotus-built engines (Vs Lotus head conversion on a Ford short block). Jump in at any level you like.

I've owned two S2's and two TC's for many years and many miles. I really like both models. I love the early handling. I love the Twin Cam engine, although it's an expensive mistress. For a street car/ cruiser/ over-the-road car, I'd take a Twin Cam pretty much stock. Besides, the extra headroom would be better for my tall son. For an autocross car or Banzai road burner, enclosed Seven alternative, I'd go with a hotrod S1-S2. That's about what I have now in the 69 S2. It's probably pushing the limits of street practicality, but it handles like a waterbug, weighs about 1400 lbs and scoots right along with 110 rwhp. But I sure miss that lovely Twin Cam sound!

Good luck,
Tim Engel
69 Europa S2
78 Eclat (ey clah')
79 Eclat
80 Esprit S2

 

[healeyneil]

Finish the Healey first, James !!!

 

[coldplugs]

James, there have been several discussions in this forum on this particular topic. I think a quick search for "europa" would find them.

Several of us have opinions on these cars - I'd tend to avoid them except for really good Twincams and even then I'd need to think long & hard - but that's just one guy's opinion.

If you haven't driven one, I strongly suggest you beg a ride from someone before considering ownership.

 

[Esprit2]

If you're a purist, the Renault Vs Twin Cam debate can consume more time than it would take to rebuild either engine. If you are a little more open to alternaties, transplanting the Toyota 4AGE engine (MR2 Mk I) and Renault NG3 gearbox (Fuego) into any of the Europas is becoming popular. There's even a JDM version of the 4AGE with 5 valves per cylinder and 160 Hp out of the box. The 4AGZE Supercharged engine will even fit. Weighs more than a Renault/ less than a Twink, modern "twist the key and go" dependability, Toyota reliability, every corner mechanic can service it, parts are available and (by Lotus standards) laughably cheap, and more powerful than either OEM engine.

For a non-purist, it sounds pretty good. However, the thought of bastardizing rare cars can start some pretty opinionated discussions on Marque lists.

Regards,
Tim Engel

 

[DrEntropy]

Yeah, I tend to be opinionated /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

My preference is for the 1600 T/C engined Loti, be they Elan, +2, Europa or Cortina. But indeed, that is just one opinion.

John is right about driving one. Seating position is "funny." Rearward vision is kinda awful, headroom limited... but still, it's a Lotus.

 

[Esprit2]

I like the Twin Cam engine as well. It sounds great and has a spirited feel. But it is heavy and in a featherweight car that's important. The Twink is about 100+ lbs heavier than the Renault which can easily be made to put out the same or more power. The Renault's downside is that, in stock trim, it sounds like a sewing machine.

Different strokes... I love the S1-S2's 45 degree laid back seating position (Twin Cams are upright). Sort of a mix of racer and Lazy-Boy... very comfortable, it just needs a tad bit more lumbar support. And I like the feeling of putting on the car rather than getting into it. Tightly snuggled in, laid back, wedged between the door and tunnel, belts tight. You feel every move the car makes like it's a part of you. Few street cars if any... even other Lotus... can give you that "at one with the car" feel.

Yes, rearward visibility isn't good until you adapt to it. The Esprit is that way too, except it's huge and the passenger window is a long ways away. It helps to make every lane change part of a passing maneuver.

In many (most) ways, the Europa is a car you adapt to. It's not a milquetoast, homogenized fit that feels de je vu natrual the first time you sit in it. But get used to it and it will spoil you for anything else.

My opinion.

Tim Engel

 

[DrEntropy]

I'm not dissin' Europas, believe me, Tim. I used to sell 'em "back inna day" as well. Quick, fun cars. I'm just thinkin' the T/C parts are more available, the rearward visibility a *bit* better, the car a *bit* less frail, is all. ~I'd~ have a Europa if not for the +2.... and I've run nose-to-tail with Europas on twisty-windy courses in the Elan S-3, too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Deleted member 3577]

Just don't go over 18-1 compression /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

[DrEntropy]

Furiously writes note to self....

 

[aeronca65t]

This one was for sale at the flea market at Lime Rock Vintage a few years ago.

I expect you could've picked it up for a fiver and a six pack of cheap beer.

By the way, there were two Eclats rusting away in a yard near my folk's house (in central NJ) a while back. Not sure if they're still there (or anyone is interested) , but I could look next time I'm down there.

 

[DrEntropy]

No interest from here, Nial. Don't waste yer time... The fiver would go to the Spyder fund, the CAB would get three friends a couple apiece. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

And runnin' higher than 10.5:1 in a French production engine would be tantamount to allowing a live grenade to roll around on the passenger footwell... mebbe th' pin will stay put, mebbe it won't. <shrug>

 

[aeronca65t]

...And runnin' higher than 10.5:1 in a French production engine would be tantamount to allowing a live grenade to roll around on the passenger footwell... mebbe th' pin will stay put, mebbe it won't. <shrug>

Ye Of Little Faith!...Never drove a Peugeot diesel, I guess. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
By the way, they're planning a ~diesel-powered LeMans Effort~

 

[DrEntropy]

SNORK!!! I ain't NEVER seen a Europa diesel, French or otherwise.

Let 'em... I believe Audi led th' way.