Crypt Car Brake Failure

[Tinster]

If the Crusher were open today, I'd tow this foul
beast over myself. I thought I'd be driving down to the
beach by now.

Worked my butt off changing out PDO Pedro's busted
trailing arm. Everything back together- all it needs
is bleed the brake I had disconnected.

Wendy pushes down on the brake pedal, fluid sprays all
over the place from the brand new brake wheel cylinder
David installed last month. Also I notice I cannot fit
the outside cast iron piece the brake shoes push against.
The brake shoes appear to be expanded outward.

It took me almost 2 hours to get that top spring installed.
Maybe I messed up the cylinder doing the spring?

What have I messed up and how do I fix it? I know zero
about brake installations.

thanks, /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/nopity.gif

 

[Guest]

No chance your emergency brake isn't set?

Sometimes a small ball peen hammer comes in handy.

Obviously that is Wendy's fault.

 

[NickMorgan]

Silly question, but you did have the drum on when you bled the brakes?

 

[Guest]

Oi Vey. That would hurt.

 

[martx-5]

My guess is NO!!

The piston just cocked when it popped out. Remove the shoes so you can remove the piston the rest of the way. Then re-install it and put the shoes back on. BTW, it's easiest to put the springs on the shoes first. Then you kinda pull them apart a little while you finagle it around the hub and then insert the ends of the shoes where they have to go.(in the adjuster mechanism and the wheel cylinder) Get one shoe in place, then pull the other one into the slots.

Then, PUT THE DRUM ON. Adjust the shoes and bleed.

EDIT: BTW, AREN'T those return springs supposed to be BEHIND the shoes??? IIRC, they are on my TR3.

 

[Tinster]

No the E brake is NOT set.

NO, I did NOT have the drum on.
Didn't know I needed to.

Yes, David had the spring behind. I gave up almost
immediately trying to install it behind.

I have Bentley blue book and their brake section
leaves alot to be desired. They say to remove this
and that part but give no hint where it is or what
it is.

Can someone start me at square one? Like how do I
remove the shoes? If that is the first step.


BTW: Is this entire mess because I had to remove that
stupid spring to get at the trailing arm stud under it?
thanks,

D

 

[RomanH]

Dale,
The brakes have to be reassembled as if the car was ready to be driven before you bleed them. When you press the brake pedal the drums need to be in place to resist the outward motion of the shoes or else you end up with what you did.
I don't think it's a loss, it looks like you can put the wheel cylinder back together if the rubber boot is not torn, just do what Art wrote.
Did you remove the other side? If not pull off the wheel and the drum to see how it is assembled and use it to guide you along the way.
Don't give up now it's almost ready.

 

[DrEntropy]

You need to get off that island and back to Florida, Dale! I could DRIVE to Jupiter, fix the brakes (a ~TWO~ beer job, MAX) test drive the thing to lunch and be back home before dark!

Rats!... rats, ratsRatsratsrats....

 

[Tinster]

Thanks all-

Yup it IS a total loss this time.

The rubber boot is torn, Wendy is furious at me for
all the time I have spent working on the car this week,
all for nothing. The Crypt Car is STILL on blocks and non
functional. A steady state condition it would seem.

The Boss ordered me to put away all automotive tools, cover
the car back up, clean the garage and not to even attempt
anything else until after we return from a week's cruise on
the 15th of may.

I will order a new brake wheel cylinder from Moss. Brakes
are totally over my skill level. If I have the a new wheel
cylinder for a TR6, is this something Wester Auto could
handle if I have the car towed over there?

I am beginning to think this will be a three weeks a year
functional car. The remainder of the year on jack stands.
Depressing to say the least. Leaving next Sunday for the
cruise on a real down note.

DPO Pedro! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/pukeface.gif

 

[70herald]

Dale
from the picture, that rubber boot doesn't look torn, I think it just popped out of place. No big deal, when you get the brake shoes off, it will be easy to put back together. I highly doubt that you did any damage to the cylinder.

To take the brake shoes off you need to remove the clip on the pad. I circled it in red on the picture. Push the square shaped spring in and then twist the little rod 90 degrees. when you release the spring it (the spring) and the brake shoe will come right off.

try putting the big tensioning springs in with 1 brake shoe attached and the other brake shoe loose. It is a bear of a job if only because the springs keep trying to pop off and they are quite strong! A small flat pry bar is very helpful!
Also before you try putting it back together, back off the adjuster ( the bottom thing opposite the hydraulic cylinder) on the back of the brake plate it has a small 1/4"? square bolt screw it out as much as possible to reduce the amount you need to stretch the springs.

Any brake shop will be able to handle these brakes, but I have confidence in you to solve this your self, you have solved MUCH bigger problems than this.
Yisrael

 

[TRDejaVu]

You have, amongst other things, just rebuilt a rear suspension and the skill level for that is way above what is needed for these sort of brakes. Heck, there are LBC owners who won't even attempt an oil change, so my hat (if I wore one) is off to you for what you have done with that car.

You had a minor brain cramp in not putting the drum on before bleeding; over the years we have all done similar basic mistakes, even those of us who used to turn wrenches for a living. Now pull yourself together man and get the car back on the road so you can continue terrorizing anyone who gets in your way on the island

Disclaimer: Tough love approach provided in a manly-man sort of way and does not imply anything more; "not that there is anything wrong with that" (Seinfeld quote I believe).

 

[NickMorgan]

Dale,
Maybe someone else can confirm this, but I think the springs should be behind the brake shoes. At least they are on all my Triumphs, but I don't have a TR6! I usually assemble the two shoes with the springs behind the hub, but not in place on the cylinder and adjuster. I then put one shoe in the slot on the adjuster and cylinder and lever the other shoe in place. The problem when doing this is that you have to keep the springs in slight tension, and the whole assembly often comes apart. Once it is all in place put the pins and clips in to hold the shoes in place, replace the drum, adjust the brakes up (make sure that you don't adjust the hand brake before the shoes) and then bleed. Easy!
Good luck to you Dale. I imagine you can re-use that cylinder as long as the rubber seal is OK.
Nick

 

[14dna]

Dale
Everyone has given you good advice, and I, of all people, know you can do it. Get a hold of your alter ego, Dave JR., and put that car back together. Don't make me come down there!
Dave
P.S. If you send me pictures on my e-mail, I'll fill in the blanks and send 'em back.

 

[swift6]

Dale,

I can see that tear in the rubber boot, time for a new one. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wall.gif

Sometimes when your frustrated it is best to just walk away for a while. Throw the cover over Cryptie, order the new wheel cylinder and go enjoy the cruise with Wendy away from Cryptie. Then you'll be all set to tackle those brakes when you get back.

Make sure Wendy knows that this was operator error and not Cryptie this time. Take some of the flack away from the poor car, this one was not of its doing. It won't be the last time you goof up doing something either. We all learn best through our mistakes anyway right. I've learned plenty from mistakes. The key is not to make the same mistake more than twice (maybe three times) before it really sets in. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[TR4nut]

Dale-

Take a breather - I agree with a bunch of the previous comments, especially Ian's note that rebuilding a rear end is tough and you've already accomplished it. I also agree with Nick though- get someone to verify the spring placement on the brake shoes, as I think that they may be incorrectly installed as you show on your picture.

Randy

 

[ALLAN]

Dale,
Maybe somenoe else can confirm this, but I think the springs should be behind the brake shoes.
----------------------------------Yes, they go on the Inside, I originally posted saying they go to the front, but I got my backs and fronts mixed up, I guess its better to say inside or outside

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Dale,
Maybe somenoe else can confirm this, but I think the springs should be behind the brake shoes.

-----------------------------------------They go in the front

Sorry, but they definitely go on the inside...

 

[Aldwyn]

Yes, they go in the back/inside for sure. I just redid my breaks last week!

Dale, you can do this... brakes are NOT beyond you!

As mentioned before, put the springs on the shoes THEN spread them apart and work them into place. It's SOOOO easy to do it this way. Then put the pins back in, and put the drum on. No brake spring tool required!

You talked about not being able to put the metal piece back on that the brakes press against? Do you mean the drum? If so, you just need to adjust it... get your head behind the wheel and look for a little square-head bolt on the back/bottom... (it's best if you have the brake wrench for this, but it wont kill you if you dont have it) this opens and closes the bottom piston ever so slightly to either spread the shoes or bring them closer together... keep turning this until you can get the drum on. Once it's on, tighten the sucker back up again until the wheel no longer moves... then loosen it a little bit until the wheel moves agin.

As mentioned, make sure everything is put back together (save the tires) before bleeding the brakes... then bleed away!

Good luck!

 

[TRopic6]

Hey Dale,
Your photo brought back memories of the times I've done the same thing over the years. First out of youthful ignorance, then after telling my co-bleeder (wife) to "just push the pedal a little while I watch the piston" and then again thinking "I'll just push the pedal a little while I lean out and watch the piston." Good times...

It's no big deal. The springs go on the inside and are tedious but follow 70Herald and Aldwyn's tips. I'll bet you a bag of Red Lion 100% Kona that the boot isn't torn. It's stretched, which makes the cutout at the back for the cylinder body look like a tear. You'll need to take the shoes off like Yisrael said to put the piston back in. While the piston is out, you can clean the bottom of the bore with Q-Tip...gunk seems to build up there.

You might be interested to know as a result of your TA incident I checked mine this weekend. No loose studs, but the passenger hub had some play to it. Thanks to you, I can replace it before it really gets bad. Keep the faith, bruddah.

Jeff
CF13816U

 

[PeterK]

Dale,

The way I look at my cars is that everything I screw up now, someone will curse me like you do Pedro. So I become the DPO, just like you will for your TR6. It's just how we learn; we make stupid mistakes and then fix them, hopefully a little wiser. Everything I make better, I think of how the next guy will say "wow, this guy really did a great job."

So get back on the horse and give Pedro a break. It's not Pedro's fault; he was just the dpo.

And now you're (hopefully) a little bit wiser too.

No big deal. Now you know a little more about brakes.