California Emissions + 1980 MKIV 1500

[Gafirema]

It would seem something has been unclear to a few folks unfortunately, or maybe I'm just reading them wrong, if so I'm sorry. However, I am from California. I've never lived in Texas. I have family in other parts of the Country but I am a Californian. The car was bought by me here in California. The guy I bought it from is from Texas. He has a home here and a home there and brought the Car here to California from Texas.

All I want is to be able to drive the thing legally... If not, to just register it as a non-op and sell it to some one out of state.

Also @ TOC, I was mainly asking if it originally came with a Catalytic Converter, if it did it should still be on there, if not if I should put a brand new one on. And it would seem the cut off day for emission exempt vehicles is 1975 or prior, no newer.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Reason I asked, is up here we finally got the emissions folks to set a 25-year sliding date for emissions.
I watch CARB do their thing.....same them mandate emissions on a 1950 Ford......PCV and some hairball Carter box on the inner fender, until they got taken to court and could_not_mandate backfitting of cars accepted for sale in the US and the State of California without emissions.
Then I left the state, and have no intention of returning.

You should read up on Catalytic Converters and Federal Emissions, before you put an old converter on, if the owner provides you with one.
It's been a while, but I know you cannot put a used converter on the car, and one that is off the car, unless it is removed for maintenance and placed right back, becomes a used converter, and the fine will surprise you (and your bank account).
At least that's the way it was.

Did the Texas transplant register the car in California, or even title it?
If he is a California resident, and did not, there is an issue, as I don't know what the time allowed in California is, but some places it's right now you transfer the title, or a fine.

If he is a California resident and sold you a vehicle he knowingly removed the emissions devices (Federal or CARB) from, the fine for him will be a real surprise.
And when CARB gets done with him, the Feds might just pick up where they left off.
I have seen the Feds go after folks....often, the fine was waived if the previous owner replaced all devices and had the car pass emissions.

Just replacing a 350 Chevy engine with a casting number block and /or heads that were from a previous emission standard was a $10,000 fine AND they had to restore the emissions compliance of the vehicle.

And that was up here, NOT CARB.

Whatever you do, never, as in ever, indicate to anyone that you may have removed emission devices, even if you think it will speed the process along.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Well, I was wrong.
It's now a $25,000 fine.
"Used" converters aceeptable for sale under EPA laws are those that have been reconditioned and tested and bear the EPA stamp.
https://www.epa.gov/oms/cert/factshts/catcvrts.pdf

Page 3, paragraph 5:
"EPA considers it a violation of the policy to install a used converter from a salvage yard or sell it for reuse unless it has been properly tested and labeled. Similarly, it is a violation to install an untested used converter brought in by a customer, even if the customer insists that the used
converter came off his/her vehicle."

That's why I said I hope you can do the work.
You have a shop install a converter you bring in that you tell them came off the vehicle, $25,000 fine, and they won't do it.

 

[frankenstang57]

Find a mule, trade tags, run it through... Did I just type that? Nope.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Nope, you didn't, and I wouldn't, either.
Be careful what you put in print.
It's there forever.

 

[Gafirema]

I'm pretty sure it still has the converter on... I don't see why he'd remove it. I believe I can see it under the car as well.

 

[Scott_Hower]

Well, I was wrong.
It's now a $25,000 fine.
"Used" converters aceeptable for sale under EPA laws are those that have been reconditioned and tested and bear the EPA stamp.
https://www.epa.gov/oms/cert/factshts/catcvrts.pdf

Page 3, paragraph 5:
"EPA considers it a violation of the policy to install a used converter from a salvage yard or sell it for reuse unless it has been properly tested and labeled. Similarly, it is a violation to install an untested used converter brought in by a customer, even if the customer insists that the used
converter came off his/her vehicle."

That's why I said I hope you can do the work.
You have a shop install a converter you bring in that you tell them came off the vehicle, $25,000 fine, and they won't do it.

These rules seem to apply to the trade, not Joe Q Public who is trying to ensure his car meets SMOG. They are intended to protect consumers by ensuring a shop doesn't sell used and potentially faulty equipment.

 

[TR3driver]

He ... brought the Car here to California from Texas.

Ah, I missed that part. In that case it is already illegal, unless he just brought it in a few days ago. The law says the fees must be paid within 20 days of the car entering the state. And since it cannot be resold as a car until it meets smog, what you bought is a collection of parts that just happens to move under it's own power.

Getting all the parts in place is just the first step; to get past the visual inspection part of the smog test. IF they are working properly, then most likely all it will take to pass the sniffer test is a good tune-up, possibly including adjustments by someone with a exhaust gas sniffer. The test limits are actually pretty loose on the older cars (compared to the specs they had to meet when new), but it's unlikely you'll pass unless the cat, EGR and air pump are all doing their things. IOW if those parts are not working properly, they will need to be replaced with new.

The main benefit of buying the parts from Scott is that he will have all the carb, manifold, brackets, fittings, control valves, etc. that would otherwise be expensive or NLA.

If there is a converter on the car, it has almost certainly been ruined by running with the Weber carb. The good news is that, last time I needed a single 2-way cat replaced, the local shop only charged me $180 installed.

And as TOC correctly notes, no shop will install a used cat unless they were the ones to remove it. If the cat is missing (they increase backpressure and so reduce performance to some extent), you'll have to either install the one from Scott yourself, or pay a shop to install a new one.

Now you know why you got such a good deal (or at least should have). Lots of folks get burned by this process, when they bring their (illegally) modified cars into CA.

At this point, you might be better off getting the car back out of the state ASAP, and sell it using those Texas tags & title. Just don't get caught.

 

[Scott_Hower]

To the OP...

Seems curious why the owner would keep (current) Texas tags on a car being stored and operated in CA - unless there was a reason. I suspect that reason has to do with the emission hassles of registering it in CA.

Some will recall that the Spitfire I bought in CA had a snag with the title. Namely, the seller failed to provide me with one. After much investigation (thank God for eBay's vehicle purchase protection team) it was determined that the seller owed several hundred dollars in back DMV/in-op fees to the state of CA. The only way they would issue a CA duplicate title was if these fees were brought current. The seller paid the fees AND had the car smog tested even though it was not required for me in PA. At that point, I suspect he just wanted eBay's legal group off his back.

If you sell the car WITHIN CA, it will be your responsibility to ensure it passes SMOG. If you sell the car outside the state, you're fine.

Do you have a CA title yet? How long do you have to get it smogged before you need to register it as in-op? Visual inspection aside, I doubt you'll pass with a DGV. If this were mine, I'd take an inventory of what you have and what you need and go from there.

Here's a photo of what a CA smogged Spitfire ought to look like... gives you some idea of what you need. The airpump, charcoal canisters and anti-run on valve are out of view.

 

[Scott_Hower]

And another, with the air cleaner removed.

 

[AweMan]

This thread re-affirms my lack of desire to reside in California!
Although I suspect the same restrictions will apply in every state across the nation fairly soon.

 

[ekamm]

I agree way to complicated. Here in SE Kansas it's drive em if you got em. If you can title/tag it and it runs just go.

 

[tdskip]

Not sure I'd choose to live/not live somewhere solely based on emissions testing requirements but there is a reason many of us out here look to 1975 or older cars.

I deal with this every two years on the TR8, and once it is set up properly it isn't a big deal.

And keep in mind that it is will be 70, sunny, dry and I'll have a view of both the ocean and mountains from where I get the 20 minute SMOG check done.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

On the question of shops and private parties and the Feds......when I was in the biz, it was explained to us, legally, that it's both.
The law allows them to go looking, and to charge and levy fines against shops or individuals.
It also allowed them to find who removed the equipment.
We had a deal up here where we inventoried all the major emissions devices on a car every time we did underhood work, attaching it to the work order.
Apparently the investigators could determine by data at various points when the devices were present and when they were not.
We would hear stories......

 

[Deleted member 8987]

https://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/cff/memo-1a.txt

Refers to Section 203 (a) (3) of the Clean Air Act, referred to in the very first line of the article on Cats I originally posted:

"As of January 1, 1988, all persons engaged in the business of automotive service and repair,
as well as other parties named in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act"

The "memo" listed at the top of this post says:

"3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device
or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor
vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title
prior to sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any
person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device
or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate
purchaser; or"

And the legalese goes on and on.

It is far simpler, for me, anyway, to buy a vehicle manufactured prior to the 1968 USEPA 0r 1966 CARB meddling and not have to ever worry about it.

 

[ekamm]

Don't get me wrong I have family in San Diego and would move there in a heartbeat if I could do so and still afford to eat. I also have no need for a newer vehicle, just saying that the laws and regs can get a little oppressive.

 

[Scott_Hower]

The legal text can say whatever it wants, the EPA regs are targeted at the trade. I would love to know the last time an EPA Fed went sniffing around someone's home trying to bust them for installing a used converter for private, non-resale use. Probably just this side of never.

Feds: "Uh Mr Jones, yeah you're going to have to come with us. We have reason to believe you've installed a used auto part purchased on eBay"

Me: "I'm just installing some parts to make it legal."

Feds: "Sir, the squirrels are bunnies are choking. Don't make this any harder than it needs to be. Step away from the vehicle".

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Seen it local where removed emissions devices were targeted by the Feds to a private party.
Been a while, but they do have the law to allow them to do as they want.

About, oh, 15-16 years ago, had a guy come into the shop with a state registered vehicle he had just purchased, and ALL emissions were removed...air injector lines, gulp valves, air pump, EGR with a torch-cut blank-off plate, cat removed.
We gave the phone number to the guy, the EPA went after the previous owner, who claimed he got it that way, so the EPA checked with the previous owner, who had documentation from the repair shops showing repair and necessary replacement of defective emissions devices, so back to the immediate reseller, who was required under law to restore the vehicle to EPA standards OR face (at the time) a $10,000 fine for each occurrence of tampering.

They do perform their legal duties....possibly when it suits them, but I don't take any chances.

 

[TR3driver]

Been a while, but they do have the law to allow them to do as they want.

In some cases that is true. But there doesn't seem to be any law that prohibits an <span style="font-weight: bold">individual </span>from installing a used catalytic converter on <span style="font-weight: bold">their own car </span>from the same make, model and year. Especially in this case, since it will be promptly tested for proper operation (by passing a tailpipe sniffer test).

And given the current political climate, I would guess that the EPA is being pretty careful about not overstepping the bounds. There are a lot of folks in Congress just now that would love to simply disband them (and others that feel they should not have the power to enact and enforce laws by themselves).

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Which is why, when I weighed in on this, I said I hope he can do his own work.
It IS illegal to SELL a used cat, it IS illegal to install a used cat, even if the customer says it is off the car in question, and those are specific.
Section 203 does stipulate individuals, as opposed to shops, from doing certain things, and for me, I do NOT want to get in the sights of the Feds.
Do you?

Want to "test" the ability of the Feds to prosecute?

If one DOES install a used cat, for heaven's sake, don't tell anybody.