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TR6 Transmission Swap in my TR6

SCguy

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https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...068699&rd=1,1

My rebuilt overdrive transmission has first gear syncros that don't work. I've been considering swapping out the tramsmision for this Sierra 9 conversion. The E-bay seller make the exchange sound really straight forward. I've done alot with my cars, but I've never taken out a transmision. Is this conversion a good idea? What are the pitfalls? Is it doable with the help of the people on this board?

I would really like to have more confidence in my car ablity as a daily drive that doesn't need to be babied.
 

martx-5

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I believe I've read of someone on this forum doing the Sierra conversion, but most of the conversions use the HVDA kit. It uses a Toyota box from a Celica. Herman supplies the rest of the parts to do the swap.

You can pick up a good used Toyota box from about $200-$400. That will make the conversion come to about $1800-$2000. Cheaper then the Sierra conversion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

Edit: BTW, the guy selling that conversion on e-bay is Dr. Marty (yes, he's a real medical doctor). I've bought some stuff from him, and since he's here on Long Island I just picked them up at his house. He a real down to earth guy that loves LBC's.
 

piman

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Hello Larry,

is it the gearbox that is rebuilt or the overdrive.
If the former then the synchromesh shouldn't be a problem. What are the symptoms as first gear is not normally a problem?
To me changing from a 4 speed plus overdrive to a 5 speed is a retrograde step.

Alec
 
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If you're going to swap, you can probably sell your tranny for nearly the cost of the conversion. Personally, unless your car is heavily modified, I'd be keeping the o/d.

The type-9 box (from the Ford Sierra in the UK or Merkur XR4 here) doesn't really handle any more power, and as you know, the o/d tranny will cut the revs down anyway, as well as adding value to your car.

Of course if you just had the 4-speed I'd be saying do it! I went to the Toyota box from a non-o/d tranny. Honestly I'd rather have had the original setup, especially after driving one with overdrive.

<edit> eek i just saw the cost! I thought it was about 2k. Get the hvda conversion and a good w58 box and save yourself $500 (which is enough to have a professional install it if you don't fancy the job and are set on changing).
 
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SCguy

SCguy

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Alana,

That's what I kind of wanted to hear. I had a four speed transmission that then got a J-type overdrive added. Everything got rebuilt, but first gear syncro went out after about one hundred miles. So I can't go into first while moving without a grind. Other than that, everything is working fine. The work on the transmission is no longer warranted and the machanic and I have a very strained relationship as he took close to five years to restore my car and the was over budget by some $20,000. It was at that point that I took the car and finished it myself. I guess the thing to do is just find someone else to rebuid it again or just live with it until the transmission fails.
 
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[ QUOTE ]
I guess the thing to do is just find someone else to rebuid it again or just live with it until the transmission fails.

[/ QUOTE ]

Larry, just because you lost your first gear syncro doesn't mean that your transmission will fail . Just drive it a while until you find someone will to pull it for you and go through the whole unit. Might well only be a synchronizer. Your car is too nice to use an odd-ball transmission. Plus, it will greatly reduce it's value.
 

Alan_Myers

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Hi Larry,

Personally I think it's too early to be considering a trans swap or even another rebuild, for several reasons.

For one, first gear syncrho is actually something you can live without pretty easily.... Just ask all the TR2/3 owners who never enjoyed it to begin with! I drove my TR4 with a very iffy 1st gear synchro for sevearl years. I learned to double clutch and use 2nd gear from relatively low speeds anyway. No real problem driving the car w/o 1st gear synchro.

Usually a simply worn out 1st syncrho will not cause any further harm to the gearbox. It would be more of an issue if 2nd, 3rd or 4th synchro were the problem. To me it would be a bigger concern if it were a very sudden failure, possibly combined with other symptoms like gearbox noise.

One thing I'd suggest you do right away is drain the gearbox oil. Be sure to use a clean pan to catch it and take a close look for a lot of grey or bronze particles floating in the used oil. These might indicate rapid wear of bushings/bearings/shafts (grey) or synchros (bronze). Larger chunks of metal, steel or bronze, are indicative of more serious damage inside the gearbox. If you let the oil sit overnight, particles and sludge will settle to the bottom and be even more obvious when the oil is poured off into another container. It might be a good idea to put the used oil and sludge in a clean container and keep it so you can show it to any mechanic who might work on the gearbox.

Be sure to use the right type of oil when you refill the gearbox (non-detergent, 30 to 40W racing motor oil would probably be best, if the J-type OD is recently rebuilt).

I know some TR6 don't have a gearbox drain plug (unless one has been added), in which case it is harder to analyze the oil like this. But, since you have an OD, that might serve to drain the oil.

Fresh oil just might help things work better, especially if the current oil has been in there since the rebuild and there was some initial wear and tear while the box and OD were breaking in. This might lead to contaminated oil and poorer lubrication. A lot of gearbox/OD rebuilders run freshly rebuilt units on some sort of bench setup for as much as an hour or two and then change the oil, for just this reason. Do you know if that was done when it was rebuilt?

If it's just the first gear synchro needing repair, that would usually be a relatively easy and inexpensive thing to have done. I seem to recall there have been some issues with poor quality replacment synchro parts, perhaps that's the case on your car.

If just recently out of warranty, you could still talk to the mechanic who did the job previously, if you felt you could trust them. They might make it right, even though warranty has expired by a little bit.

It's also possible that one of the selector forks is bent or the linkage is out of adjustment, too. These would also be relatively easy fixes, too.

Sounds like you no longer have good feelings about working with the original mechanic. So, beside his Toyota conversions, be aware that Herman Vanden Akker (HVDA) also works on the TR gearboxes and might be able to advise you, or give you the name of someone else nearby who can. Herman is in SoCal, I seem to recall, perhaps near you? (Shipping alone would be pricey sending a complete 120 lb. gearbox/OD to John at Qauntum Mechanics on the East Coast, who is the other top source for TR g'box repairs, IMO).

One other thing. Difficulty getting into first gear is not always a synchro issue. It can also be a sign of a clutch problem, such as excessive wear/adjustment needed (which is not possible on stock TR6 setup, but there are aftermarket adjusters available), or the dreaded failure of the taper pin holding the fork to the cross shaft. It can also be a sign that the hydraulic system isn't giving full movement (5/8" or more at the lever, if I recall correctly) and there is a leak or air in the MC or SC, especially with TR6 stock setup that has little margin for error.

In these cases, the clutch simply isn't disengaging adequately. Very often a first sign is also that 1st gear becomes difficult to engage, just like a failing synchro. Repair can be relatively inexpensive to moderately expensive, but no where near the cost of a gearbox rebuild or conversion.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 

prb51

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Keep the OD, take Alans advice and keep driving. No 1st synchro on any of our 3's and it's a nice tie to pre war driving that is easily adapted to. Every car needs a 'pet peeve' anyways.
I've been thinking about an overdrive for my 3 and have decided to go with the original overdrive unit for originality and the enthusiasm of the gents on this forum for the driving experience.
 
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Oh, and what kind of oil are you using in your tranny/overdrive? I would recommend straight 30 wt. Non-Detergent motor oil. (Valvoline)
 

Geo Hahn

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Yes, what they said. After a couple of decades of driving my TR3A w/o a synchro first I find I also drive the TR4 as if it has no synchro there.

Shoot, I drive my wife's Toyota that way too.
 

tomshobby

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Nothing silly about it Larry. I have been reading these transmission/overdrive threads for quite a while and am no closer to deciding which way to go than when I started. I do plan on increasing my HP to 160 to 180 and some indicate the HDVA conversion, but I like the idea of keeping it Triumph even though od is not original to my car.

When I get the time to make the change I will probably go with how I feel at that time. Do I have trouble making up my mind on this, well, yes and no! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

TR4nut

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I scanned this thread pretty quickly, so this may have been suggested already: if the 1st gear grind drives you nuts, just consider putting in a new set of syncros if you ever have to pull the trans for clutch work, etc.. Yes, a lot of work, but most of it is the headache of the trans pull - opening up the transmission case is definitely something you can tackle, and those syncros are pretty cheap.

Randy
 

bobh

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My brother had a 67 Healey 3000. I don't think 1st gear was syncronized. The trick to getting it into first was to do so while slowing down. With the clutch depressed. Put a little pressure on the stick as you are starting to get down to 5 mph or so. As you come nearly to a stop the tranny would slip into 1st with no grind. Maybe this will work for you? Does double clutching help?
 

prb51

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67 AH 3000's had synchros on all gears, you're brothers car had a weak 1st synch so had to coax it into gear. If you do that with a true non synch 1st you'll really grind the gears. If you have completely lost the synch that might just cause more problems.
Generally on the 3, due to the engine torgue, you only need 1st from a dead stop so it's no big deal not sure on the other models.
 
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