Starter does not want to stop

[Jim Lee]

First, thanks for all the help with the choke. I think I have that problem on the run. In the course of messing around with the choke I somehow made my TR3's starter run constantly. Here is the sequence of events.

- Standing next to the engine bay I pressed the handy starter switch on the solenoid. It turned fine but I finally realized that it was not going to start without the key turned on so that ignition would be happening.

- Turned the key on and pressed the starter button on the solenoid again. Starter turned...and turned...and turned. Fortunately the ground cable on my battery was loose enough that I could remove it. Put the ground cable back on for a second and the starter starts up again.

- I have an extra starter/solenoid so I am putting that in to make sure that the current solenoid is not bad. I tested the continuity of that starter button and it tested fine. Exactly the same as the other, original, starter button that I am going to put in as a test.

- Also tested the push button starter switch in the cockpit. It tested fine as far as continuity goes. Open when not pushed, closed when pushed.

Anyone have any guesses as to what might be going on? The first thing I do tomorrow is to put the old starter/solenoid in and see if I have the same 'starter won't stop' issue.

As a side note, does anyone know what the thread is on the starter/solenoid? Is it some crazy Old World English deal? M8 1.0, 1.25 did not work. 5/16's 18 or 25 did not work. I have one nut that was on one of the poles but I am missing the other.

Thanks very, very much,
Jim Lee

 

[TR3driver]

Quick test, pull the small side wire (white w/red as I recall) off the solenoid, then try again. If the starter still runs, the solenoid is bad. If not, the problem is somewhere back towards the pushbutton on the dash.

Yes, those are "crazy Old World threads"

I don't recall the exact size offhand, but they are either Whitworth or BA. So is the stud on the starter.

 

[Geo Hahn]

I have had that happen once -- but it never recurred.

Mine was a bit more exciting as it came at the same moment that the starter jammed. I rocked the car backwards (in 4th) to free the starter, then the stuck solenoid took over and began to drive the car forward. I was parked just a couple of feet from a concrete wall with the added difficulty factor that the right front tire was driving over my foot.

I, too, keep the ground cable loose though I had to wait until the tire got off my foot to reach for it. Longest 3 seconds of my life so far.

 

[TR3driver]

YoW!

 

[Jim Lee]

That is motoring excitement.
Is that little wire what tells it to turn?
I take it that the little wire on the side is what tells
it to turn? If so could I hook everything up except that wire and test to see if it is hot without anything turned on?

The only suspect thing about the starter/solenoid that was on there was that the two posts can be wiggled a bit and cannot be screwed in tight. Whereas the original ones posts are tight do not move at all. My assumption is that the original one, which I believe is original to the car, is of a higher quality than the reproduction. When I removed the original solenoid I believe that I did it as a test and never got around to replacing it...so I am pretty confident it is good.
The only issue is having to get a Whitworth nut. Do the big three sell those at a reasonable cost?

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[ekamm]

My solenoid button will stick occasionally as well. I don't use it unless absolutely necessary. And I am ready to pull the disconnect. I always chalked it up to an original part that likely has some very old thick grease or dirty contacts.

 

[TR3driver]

Is that little wire what tells it to turn?

Yes, the little wire supplies power to the solenoid from the pushbutton on the dash. When the solenoid is energized, it closes the contacts between the two big posts, thereby passing power to the starter. So if the solenoid is stuck, it will pass power to the starter even without power from the small wire.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]The only suspect thing about the starter/solenoid that was on there was that the two posts can be wiggled a bit and cannot be screwed in tight. [/QUOTE]There should be a nut on each post, that locks the post to the body of the solenoid. Then a second nut and lockwasher attach the cable to the post.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]The only issue is having to get a Whitworth nut. Do the big three sell those at a reasonable cost?[/QUOTE]
Not as far as I know. They only come with the solenoid. ISTR they are also an unusual size as well as unusual thread.

But you might be able to come up with something that would work from https://www.britishfasteners.com/

 

[dklawson]

I know the studs use a unique thread as Randall has said, but I accidentally came across a work around. From an old piece of equipment I had some 5/16-24 thin brass jam nuts. The jam nuts were about 1/2 the thickness of normal nuts. Though the pitch was not correct, the short length of the threads in the nut did sort-of fit the solenoid studs. I used those in the "inner" position against the Bakelite housing and used the remaining original nuts on the outside. If you do not find the real nuts you need, perhaps you could sand/grind/file down some regular thickness 5/16-24 nuts to work.

 

[Jim Lee]

Ok. I have gone back to the original solenoid/switch and it is working as advertised. Now the engine is simply not starting. I am beginning to wonder if something is off with the starter. I do not get the feeling that it is turning over the engine as fast as it did. Just checked out the battery and it checked out fine at my local auto store. I was hoping that was the issue. I had a problem with old gas not long ago but then it was at least running on starting fluid for a few seconds. I am going to go over as much as I can on the ignition tomorrow. I will try to get some video of the starter turning on here to see if you all think it is normal. It is like it will turn a few times and then just stop turning, then I take my hand off the switch and it is getting hot on the positive cable coming from the battery. It was not more than a couple of months ago that it was running like unto a top. It looks like I have a few days of unseasonably nice weather for the next couple of days so I should be able to spend some time bonding with my black beauty.

Is there any kind of simple test I can do on the starter? It is original but has been rebuilt at least once.

Thanks very much,
JimLee

 

[TR3driver]

Feel along both battery cables and see if you can identify a particular spot where it is getting hot. If so, that indicates a bad connection or possibly a damaged wire. They can sometimes corrode underneath the insulation and not conduct very well. Ditto the ground strap on the engine.

Otherwise, your description sounds a lot like the starter is trying to work on 2 poles instead of 4. Only simple test I know is to remove it and either examine it yourself or take it to a shop for testing. If it is running on 2 poles, then it will appear to spin fine with no load; but the shop will have a way to measure torque.

 

[Jim Lee]

Thanks all. The Black Beauty is back on the road where it should be. We had another 60+ degree day here in the Tar Heel state. Put the reproduction switch/solenoid back in and for some reason it fired right up. I am going to see if I can hunt down the correct Witworth (sp?) nut so that I can put my original one back in.

On to new TR3 related learning experiences.

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[RJS]

Sounds like you've experienced bad solenoids in the past, as I have. The quality of the new solenoids today from the big three are suspect at best (all of $16 - get what you pay for I guess). I've had issues with the contacts sticking and the starter continuing to run. Usually, a rap on the solenoid with a hammer is enough to remedy.

I've done some research and "next time" I'll probably go with a much higher quality option from NAPA (these are direct replacement listings for a '66 TR4A):
Echlin PN: ECH ST 236 = $49
Altrom PN: ATM 1437001 = $72

I have also read here on BCF these solenoids for a '72 Ford Maverick will work
Echlin PN: ECH ST 81 = $24
Echlin PN: MPEST81SB = $12

Hope this helps and wish you luck,

Bob