Matching Numbers Question

[60TR3A]

I'm still pondering the purchase of the '63 BJ7 that's finished in Pacific Green over Oyster and I've seen loads of pics of the assembly of the car provided quite graciously by one of our forum members, Kevin Brinkerhoff who did much of the restoration work. The only remaining impediment is a missing engine number plate. The engine had been sent out to be rebuilt by an engine shop and apparently the plate was lost there. Having been a number of years since they did that work, chances are it won't be found.

The seller assures that it is the original engine and transmission and has applied for a Heritage Certificate, but how does one know if it is a numbers matching car? Doesn't the Heritage Certificate only provide the original colors and the rest is provided by the owner? Or is there record of engine number to be gotten from the British Heritage Trust? Even if the original number can be identified, how can one verify that the engine in the car is the same one if the plate is missing? And should I really care that it can't be verified to be numbers matching? It is otherwise a gorgeous and well-restored car. Your thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[HealeyRick]

BMIHT can trace a car using a variety of numbers. With one number, such as the chassis number, you'll get the rest of the numbers they have, Here's a link: https://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/s...sis-number.html Without the engine number plate on the engine, you're not going to be able to tell whether that motor was original to the car. The best you'll do is be able to tell if the motor was the type installed in the car.

Matching numbers are nice to have and probably add some value to the car. For the 100M, it would be a make or break consideration regarding the car's value. For a BJ7, not so much. There have been some pretty big changes to this car already. I don't think whether you can prove it's an original engine is going to make a huge difference in the long run.

 

[bighealeysource]

Hey 61TR3A,
I agree with Rick on the matching numbers issue. As I have mentioned earlier and Rick too,probably not a big deal unless you are talking about a 100M, one of the Tri Carbs cars (making sure it started off as a tri carb, and maybe one of the Golden Beige BJ8's (making sure it too started off as a GB car). As to the engine plate, pretty common for those soft aluminum plates to be destroyed when the engine is rebuilt. Lot of rebuilders will clean up the block and that's when the tags get destroyed. You can purchase a new correct tag from a source in PA if you decide to replace your missing engine tag. As someone else said, you love this Healey, and are really going to kick yourself if you let it get away providing you can get it for a market correct price. Go for it !
Regards,
Mike

 

[Tproject]

Just FYI. Two weeks ago I applied for two heritage certificates for BJ7's. They contacted me by e mail that the archives facility were undergoing a 1 month scheduled renovation and delivery would be the usual 28 days after that. They offered a refund of the fee but i told them I would wait

 

[60TR3A]

Hey 61TR3A,

As to the engine plate, pretty common for those soft aluminum plates to be destroyed when the engine is rebuilt. Lot of rebuilders will clean up the block and that's when the tags get destroyed. You can purchase a new correct tag from a source in PA if you decide to replace your missing engine tag.

That's very useful info. Would you or anyone following this thread know the name of the outfit that makes replica engine tags? Thanks!

 

[Randy Forbes]

Just FYI. Two weeks ago I applied for two heritage certificates for BJ7's. They contacted me by e mail that the archives facility were undergoing a 1 month scheduled renovation and delivery would be the usual 28 days after that. They offered a refund of the fee but i told them I would wait

That was nice of them to let you know. I have one of the original type (when they only cost $5.00 USD) and have thought about getting one of the fancier types; now I know I don't have to worry about it for a while :wink:

As to the nomenclature tag, it would've taken a true enthusiast back in the day, to have carefully removed it (not that easy) without damage. As aluminum, they did not survive the caustic solution in the hot-tank!

The place in PA, Clark Spares, does indeed provide accurate replicas (and the number will be on the BHIHT cert). Sown below is the reproduction tag, I ordered and put on a Longbridge engine I recently built. This was a true numbers matching engine, as I removed the damaged, but legible, remnants of the original tag.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Hey 61TR3A,

As to the engine plate, pretty common for those soft aluminum plates to be destroyed when the engine is rebuilt. Lot of rebuilders will clean up the block and that's when the tags get destroyed. You can purchase a new correct tag from a source in PA if you decide to replace your missing engine tag.

That's very useful info. Would you or anyone following this thread know the name of the outfit that makes replica engine tags? Thanks!

I used Clarke Spares & Restorations for my vin & body plates. They also do engine plates. Todd requires documentation that the car/engine is yours and this muct be mailed to him.

ClarkeSpares@att.net
www.clarkespares.com
P.O. Box 1501
Doylestown, PA 18901

215-348-0595

Fast Service and Excellent Quality!!
Make sure you get the correct rivets to attach the engine plate.

 

[60TR3A]

As to the nomenclature tag, it would've taken a true enthusiast back in the day, to have carefully removed it (not that easy) without damage. As aluminum, they did not survive the caustic solution in the hot-tank!

The place in PA, Clark Spares, does indeed provide accurate replicas (and the number will be on the BHIHT cert). Sown below is the reproduction tag, I ordered and put on a Longbridge engine I recently built. This was a true numbers matching engine, as I removed the damaged, but legible, remnants of the original tag.

Thanks! I love this forum!

 

[60TR3A]

I used Clarke Spares & Restorations for my vin & body plates. They also do engine plates. Todd requires documentation that the car/engine is yours and this muct be mailed to him.

ClarkeSpares@att.net
www.clarkespares.com
P.O. Box 1501
Doylestown, PA 18901

215-348-0595

Fast Service and Excellent Quality!!
Make sure you get the correct rivets to attach the engine plate.

Thanks so much, Patrick!

 

[AH100M]

Another endorsement for Clarke Spares. He did a VIN plate for my 100. Duplicated the font and the correct spacing.

As an aside, the engine number plate should be painted engine color. Also, the body number on the firewall next to the VIN plate should be the same color as the firewall if you want to be correct. But, as they say, "It's your car..."

 

[bighealeysource]

Like above, Todd does nice work and good guy to deal with. Also sells a lot of fasteners, clamps, things like that.

 

[60TR3A]

If I order an engine number plate, how involved is it to attach it? I'm not sure how one puts rivets into a cast iron lump nor do I know how accessible the area being worked on is. Is it a big to-do or not so much?

 

[healeyblue]

Does your engine still have the rivets in the block or just the holes they go in? The rivets are actually more like a nail. They have a spiral fluting on them that grip the cast iron. They should be installed like a nail also with a hammer I believe. I am sure Randy has a picture of just the rivets. That is the engine going in the car I am restoring now (the one in Randy's picture). This thread getting bumped up is timely because I was just getting the old VIN plates together with the new reproduction plate and need to send them off to get them reverse stamped. Now I don't have to search for the place that does them. It's Clarke Spares.
JIM

 

[BJ8Healeys]

Oh, man, as the BJ8 Registrar I hate it when I see a question like that! I hope you are planning to do it to your TR and not to the Healey.

If you don't absotively posilutely know for sure what the engine serial number is, why put a new serial number plate on it? You may know what the original engine number for the chassis was from the BMIHT certificate, but if you bought the car or engine missing its serial plate, there is no way to identify that engine anymore. It can be misleading to some future owner of the car to replace a missing serial number from an unidentifiable engine.

That's my gut reaction, but to answer your question: the original engine serial number plates for Healey 3000s are attached to the block with two "drive rivets". These are not exactly rivets, but not exactly screws, either. For a thread, they have a couple spirals down the shank. They can be removed after cutting a screwdriver slot into the head with a Dremel tool and turning them out with a screwdriver. I found an impact screwdriver useful to get them out. A standard screwdriver might work if the rivets aren't rusted. Penetrating oil can be helpful here. Have fun doing this with the engine in the car.

British Car Specialists have the drive rivets. You can just tap them in with a hammer.

 

[60TR3A]

I checked with Kevin Brinkerhoff - an active forum member - regarding the engine's originality since he was the person in charge of the car's restoration. In an email to me awhile back he said, "I am prepared to say that neither John (the seller) nor myself have any knowledge that the engine or gearbox have been changed. I would have to say that it is in high probability that they are original to the car." He also mentioned that during the engine rebuild "...new bearings for the crank and the camshaft (which would explain the missing ID tag as the block would have been hot tanked to remove the cam bearings)." Kevin did the disassembly and reassembly of the car but the engine was rebuilt by an engine shop so no one knows for sure when and how the plate was lost, but I trust his assessment that the engine is original to the car.

I don't know exactly where to look for the location of the engine plate but will check my owner's manual and see if it is shown there. It isn't clear to me in Randy's picture other than that it is on the intake side. Not having a lift nor the confidence in my abilities to ream out the old rivets, I'll leave that job to a mechanic who specializes in old British sports cars, in the event that the rivet holes contain those remnants.

Am I correct to assume that nothing radical has to be done in order to access the location and install the replacement plate?

 

[60TR3A]

Wow. There's a whole lot of intake manifold and heat shielding in the way so I can't see it looking down. Must be only visible from the bottom, I guess. No big deal if I put in the plate or not as I'm not planning on ever selling the car. I may change my mind someday but right now we're still in the honeymoon phase. Maybe when I pass on and my sons liquidate my estate they will sell the car then and the missing number plate might reduce the value a bit, but I'm hoping that won't be for another 20 years or so.

 

[BJ8Healeys]

Well, if I knew positively that the engine in my car had a serial number plate before it went for rebuild and came back without a serial number, I might be willing to replace the serial plate with the original number. But I wouldn't take anyone else's word that the engine is the same one. As Kevin says, he has no "knowledge" that the engine was changed. Does that mean he can guarantee it wasn't? Doesn't sound like it.

You can do to your car whatever you want to do, but what if the original engine to your car was removed at some time in the past and still exists with its serial number? That may not mean anything except to those of us who are interested in the numbers and try to track the cars and parts, but for us replacing a plate on an engine that is missing one without being sure it's the same engine is not quite kosher. None of us get to keep these cars forever, and the next owner would think, possibly erroneously, that his car was "matching numbers". With replacement plates, those words don't mean anything. I see far too many BJ8s with replacement VIN plates that turn out not to match the chassis they are on.

It's simply amazing to me that the Austin factory put the ONLY identification of an engine on that very-vulnerable aluminum plate with fasteners that appear to be non-removable, and which disappears as soon as the engine is rebuilt.

Removing and replacing the plate with the engine out of the car is easy enough unless you have to drill out the remains of the rivets. With the engine in the car, there is probably not enough access. The plate on a BJ7 is on the driver's side of the block, just in front of the intake manifold and just below the freeze plug in the head. You may see the two rivet holes or the stubs of the rivets there.

 

[60TR3A]

Steve,

I looked again after reading your last post and located both empty holes. I was able to insert a a nail punch into them so they feel empty. It's not easily accessible but probably doable by someone determined enough.

My engine number is supposed to be 29F-RU-H/494. It wouldn't make sense for some previous owner to have gotten rid of that engine unless it was blown or cracked, so chances are that number doesn't appear anywhere in the registry. But if you have a means of checking, I'd appreciate knowing if it is or isn't in circulation.

While there isn't any definitive proof that the lump in my car has been there since birth, Kevin knows for certain that the engine wasn't replaced by the seller from whom I bought the car and who commissioned the restoration. But all we have records on go back only 10 years or so, not before. Perhaps your registry has info from a previous owner? I'd appreciate any info you might be able to flesh out for me. The car/chassis number is H-BJ7-L/19711.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[Randy Forbes]

I checked with Kevin Brinkerhoff...

"...new bearings for the crank and the camshaft (which would explain the missing ID tag as the block would have been hot tanked to remove the cam bearings)."

A little misleading; hot tanking a block will <span style="font-style: italic">ruin</span> the cam bearings, but that alone will not remove them. The steel shells (just like the mains & rods, but one continuous ring) still have to be pulled out with an extraction tool. The same tool is used to insert the new cam bearings.

A picture of "PK" drive screws ("Parker screws" as a slang term):

 

[BJ8Healeys]

Jeff, if the rivets are missing, leaving just the empty holes, then it is a clue that the plate was removed and not just dissolved. If it was removed, why was it not reinstalled?
I only keep the BJ8 Registry, so I don't have any record of your car or its history. The BJ7 Registrar might be able to help with that: Tom Blaskovics, tomkayb@comcast.net.

The question still remains as to why replace the serial number plate if the original serial number of THAT engine is not known beyond doubt. Doing so to increase the value of resale is not being completely honest to any future owner. Anyway, a missing engine plate might be important to some buyers, but there are so many cars with no numbers out there (and the owners don't know about it and obviously don't care) that the value of the car isn't going to suffer.

There are more reasons to remove an engine than it being blown or cracked. It could have been removed for a rebuild back in 1979 and mixed up with another one at the shop. If the plates were removed, then you would never know about the mix-up. I know of one case where that was done, the serial number plates remained, and neither owner was aware that he had the other car's original engine until I told them. I also know of more than one case where the VIN plate was replaced and two cars ended up with the same VIN.