TR4/4A TR4 Series Vehicle numbers

[jajones]

Wish to ramble about my observations concerning the positions and identification of numbers for TR4 series vehicles. First the specifications which use “right – left” are not helpful at all, unless someone knows of a standard which specifies “right as you stand in front of the vehicle looking to the rear” or alternately “right as you sit in the driver’s seat”. The later would at least be compatible with the use of “right/left hand drive”. However, there is also the use of “driver’s side and passenger’s side” which can cause confusion.

The oft cited Service Manual copyrighted 1962 has a picture on page 9 with the caption “The Body Number is located on the R.H. side of the Scuttle Panel”. The edge of the fender on the left side of the picture and the regulator body visible on firewall would lead one to believe that this is the “passenger’s side of a left hand drive vehicle”, however the presence of the two hydraulic master cylinders indicates this is the driver’s side. So in fact we are looking at the “driver’s side of a right hand drive vehicle”. This assumption is also supported by the accompanying graphic on the same page with the caption “The Commission Number (Chassis Number) is located on the Scuttle Panel adjacent to the windscreen wiper motor and can be seen by lifting the bonnet”. In that picture the fender edge and the bonnet bumper indicates we are looking at the “left hand side of a vehicle from the driver perspective” the presence of the windscreen wiper motor indicates we are looking at the “passenger’s side of a right hand drive vehicle”. This proves that the two graphics are consistent for this manual which is for a right hand drive model. The specifications page published by Moss Motors says the Commission Number is on the L/H side and Body Number is on the R/H side this actually true for both right and left hand drives if the “as you sit in the driver’s seat” perspective is assumed. Other US based descriptions substitute “passenger’s side” for R/H and “driver’s side” for L/H.
The next source of confusion is what the numbers actually are. The Standard-Triumph Co. was the first to contribute to this by using the terminology “Commission Number (Chassis Number)” when in fact there is no Chassis Number registered. The number sometime found on the cross-member behind the radiator is one of many numbers which have no relevance to vehicle identification and are not recorded in the build record. This was pointed out on this forum previously. In addition, the Commission Number is sometimes referred to as the VIN. Found one description that stated the “VIN” was on the passenger’s side.
So getting that out of the way this is my story. Bought a TR4A IRS from a couple in VA while stationed with the Army in MD on Feb 22, 1999. When I registered it in Oregon I put the Commission Number CTC 63607 L in the box for the VIN and my Oregon Title reflected that choice (I have a copy). In 1999 when I retired from the Army still living in MD I was required to register my vehicles in MD. On the application for Title (of which I have a copy) I again placed the Commission Number in the VIN box. Before leaving MD the car fell into disrepair and I was not able to continue registering it. It was trailered to North Carolina where I presently live. I did not apply for an NC Title because I assumed that in order to do so it needed to pass inspection.
So time has passed now 2015 and I finally concluded that I would never have the time to do the necessary repairs to get it back on the road. I decided to sell it. One potential buyer noticed that the VIN on my MD Title did not match any of the numbers I listed as being on the vehicle. For the first time since I received the Title I looked at it. In the VIN box was the number 9830094779. This was obviously not a Commission Number. Seizing on the citation from above “VIN is on the passenger side”, I checked and found that a single line plate about 3-4” long was missing. It had been there when I spray painted the engine compartment black. At this point several things sent me off on a tangent. Having read about state issued ID numbers, having this non-commission number on my title, and the missing plate convinced me that I was looking for a state number.
Fortunately, I chose to apply to MD DMV for a copy of the title transaction between them and Oregon. This was fortuitous in that this got me back on track. On the MD Title Application I had put the Commission Number in the VIN Box as previously stated. However, the DMV clerk filling out the new Title did not use it but instead used the Document Serial Number of the Oregon Title which accounted for the “weird” number. The Oregon Title had used the Commission Number. I am presently applying to Oregon DVM for a copy of the transaction VA to OR which will contain a copy of the VA Title. In addition get build record from the British Motor Industry Heritage Trust. Hopefully, this will establish a chain of CN for VIN which will convince NC DMV to issue me an NC inop title so I can sell the vehicle.

 

[TR3driver]

First the specifications which use “right – left” are not helpful at all, unless someone knows of a standard which specifies “right as you stand in front of the vehicle looking to the rear” or alternately “right as you sit in the driver’s seat”.

There is a long established convention that, unless otherwise specified, "right" and "left" always refer to "as you sit in the driver's seat". Normally, although not always, references to "drivers" and "passenger" sides mean that the feature being discussed moves depending on whether the car was built as RHS or LHS.

"VIN" is an abbreviation for "Vehicle Identification Number", so it can be properly applied to any number that is used to identify the vehicle. But there was very little standardization before 1980 or so; for example my TR3 was originally identified by engine number (although I have since had the paperwork corrected to use the commission number).

Your experience in MD just demonstrates that it is important to double-check anything done by the DMV. They often make mistakes that can cause headaches later on. However, in most states (I don't know about NC specifically), you can just tell the local DMV that there has been a mistake made and ask them to correct it. Likely that will involve taking the car to them (by trailer or flat bed) so they can inspect the commission tag and verify that it has not been tampered with; plus filling out a "statement of facts" detailing how long you've had the car in your possession. (Assuming of course that you didn't tamper with it while painting.) But in your case, it sounds like you need to ask the MD DMV to correct the mistake, since you kept the MD title instead of transferring it to NC (as required by law).

Worst case, if they do determine that the commission tag has been tampered with, they may issue you a new identification number. I had to go through that with one of my Stags to get it registered in CA. Bit of a PITA, but not all that bad once the CHP assured me that I could have the car back later