HELP! something broke in the rear end...

[6969ronin6969]

Well, it was a nice day and my daughter had been begging me for some time to let her start learning how to drive a stick shift (she's been practicing on an automatic for some time now is is pretty good). So we (I in the driver's seat) drove over to the high school parking lot which was nice and long, and I drove around a couple of times to instruct on how to move her feet and hands. She took over the helm and I got in the passenger's seat. She depressed the clutch, slide the TR3 into first, let off on the brake and pushed on the accelerator a few times trying to get a feel for it. She let it go back to idle and released the clutch...I heard a clunk and we didn't move. I told her to give it some gas, but when she did we didn't go anywhere. I shut it down and took over the driver's seat and started her back up. I put her in first gear and released the clutch, nothing. I could hear and feel the drive shaft turning back to the differential.

We pushed the car into a parking spot and walked home. It wasn't like my daughter had the brake on or anything, so I can only imagine that whatever broke would have broken sooner or later, but it was still a little demoralizing...

I had AAA pick the car up and bring her back home. I jacked up the rear end. I noticed that I could turn the drive shaft and the rear axle spun. I fired the car up and engaged first and let out on the clutch and the rear axle spun. I dropped her back to the ground and tried to see if she'd move, but no luck. I could leave her in gear and look under the car and see the drive shaft turning back to the differential, but now the rear axle wasn't.

I've never dealt with this before, any ideas what it could be? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Eric

 

[Geo Hahn]

...I jacked up the rear end. I noticed that I could turn the drive shaft and the rear axle spun...

Did both wheels turn or just one? Of course 'just one' could still be normal. The best test would be to do this with one wheel held stationary (e.g. still on the ground) and doing each side to see if they each operate the driveshaft when turned.

I suppose you could have a broken half-axle though such a thing must be extremely rare on a TR3A (though common enough on some other British vehicles).

 

[Andrew Mace]

Eric, I feel your pain, but I can't believe it's anything but coincidence. I trust you reassured her that it wasn't her fault.

I went through something similar several years ago; fortunately there was no mechanical breakdown. My son was struggling to learn manual shift, and he'd found his mother's old Saturn intimidating at best. Knowing that tens of thousands of Brits had learned to drive on Heralds (not to mention yours truly), I suggested we try my Herald. He was quite concerned about "breaking something" until I reminded him that I had a barn full of other Heralds and parts, after which he relaxed...and mastered clutch and shifting in about 10-15 minutes!

Hope you can get your TR and your daughter back on the road quickly!

 

[6969ronin6969]

With no load on the rear, both wheels turned. I didn't try loading one side at a time. Hopefully I can find some time tomorrow. What is a half-axle? I am assuming that if I load up each side independently and if one side doesn't turn then that would mean a half shaft is broken? Is that correct?

Yeah, I didn't yell at her or anything. I did tell her that whatever broke would have probably broken anyway. Oh well, better than dying on me far from home...

Thanks guys.

Eric

 

[TR3driver]

Seems to be the season for diff failures. Couple weeks ago I got a call from a local TR3A owner who had broken a pinion gear and I sold him the rear end from TS39781LO. The very next day I crawled under my TR3 to find :

Which later investigation proved to have been caused by a pinion tooth being forcibly ejected.

Sorry, no photos yet of the internal damage.

 

[CJD]

I'm thinking one of the axles let go...but I guess you figure the same. What year is your car? You'll have to remove the dif cover to figure out which one it is.

John

 

[6969ronin6969]

Sorry, the car in question is a '56 TR3 with the original axle, so I've seen that the half shafts are a potential weak point. It's just that i've never dealt with this issue before so I'm not sure of the symptoms. If a half shaft breaks would the car not be able to move at all? Also, is there a repair procedure already posted out there?

Thanks again,

Eric

 

[martx-5]

If the half shaft breaks, you'll be dead in the water. What's your commission number?? At TS13046, they changed to Girling type rear axle which is much more robust then the earlier Lockheed type. You can tell by looking at the at how many bolts and the shape of the flange where the axle housing bolts to the brake backing plate. The Lockheed type is square and has four bolts whereas the Girling type is round and has (IIRC) six bolts.

Unless you're strictly into originality, it's best to replace the Lockheed assembly with the Girling.

 

[6969ronin6969]

The Comm# is 11,000 something so I've got the earlier axle with the square ends. Not a stickler for originality, but what's the effort involved in swapping the half shaft compared to the whole axle. Not alot of free time right now, unfortunately.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[Geo Hahn]

...what's the effort involved in swapping the half shaft compared to the whole axle...

Not too big a job (IMO) -- will be easier if you can source a complete shaft and hub, more work if you have to separate the hub. You'll probably want at least to replace the seal inside the diff housing and you'll be setting the float upon reassembly (basic dial indicator).

I have no experience on going from Lockheed to Girling so no adivce there as to whether you have to do both sides that way, do any brake components change, etc.

 

[CJD]

If you're short on time, replacing just the half shaft is the way to go. Once you have the parts, it's just a good afternoon to swap it out. The good news, it's definitely not your daughter's driving...!

John

 

[TR3driver]

The biggest problem with replacing the half shaft will be finding one! Original early shafts are darn near unobtanium and I don't know of anyone tooled up to make replacements. There is also the issue that the inside of the differential will likely be contaminated with swarf from the break, leading to future problems.

Swapping the axle isn't a lot of fun, but that would be my suggestion. I'm in the middle of replacing my Girling axle and it came out in just a couple of hours. Going back in will take somewhat longer, but not too much. Don't forget, you'll need the Girling brakes to match the later axle and the tee & hard lines that mount to the axle. I believe the hose from the 3-way on the axle to the hard line on the frame is the same (but I would replace it anyway if it hasn't been replaced recently).

Geo, it's an "all or nothing" proposition. The housing, shafts, hubs, bearings, brakes, etc are all different between the early & late setup. Fortunately the later axles hold up better (and there were a lot more of them made), so they are relatively easy to find. If all else fails, I believe Ted Schumacher (in Ohio) just got a few more in.

PS, although it looks nearly identical and will bolt up; the TR4 rear axle is wider than the TR3 axle and may lead to problems with the tires rubbing on the fenders. The 4A solid axle also looks similar but won't bolt up without some modifications. So be sure which one you are getting.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Original early shafts are darn near unobtanium...

Well, if he goes with the Girling then there will be one available for someone else.

Geo, it's an "all or nothing" proposition. The housing, shafts, hubs, bearings, brakes, etc...

Of course (now that I think about it).

If you go with a Girling set-up you might try to source it with the correct length studs (esp if you have the steel wheels that need the longer studs). You can replace the studs of course but getting one with the needed studs would save you some work.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Moss Motors and Neil Revington (in the UK) both seem to have the early axle shafts. Not cheap, but....

 

[6969ronin6969]

Thanks Andy, I just checked Moss and funny enough they have the early style half shaft, but the Girling type is NA for the narrower TR3 axle. Of course hopefully that's a sign that nobody needs them...

I also checked with TRF and they were a little cheaper, but not much (ouch!).

Anybody got a spare or unloved Lockheed half axle they'd be willing to part with? I'd be ok to go the whole Girling axle route so if someone has a spare of that as well, let me know. Of course transporting the whole axle is a bit more problematic so please let me know where you are.

Thanks,

Eric

 

[big6]

Eric,

Have you checked to see if your clutch disc is good. I had a 67 sprite years ago that spun the center out of the clutch disc. The sprite had the same basic issue you described earlier. Ran fine and stopped. Restarted and let the clutch out and no-go...

PM me with your address or phone number if you like. I can come by and assist if you would like. I live just off Reidville Rd in Moore.

 

[6969ronin6969]

Thanks for the offer big6, I'll PM you shortly.

After I got home from work today I jacked up the driver side and with some effort I was able to turn the wheel. I let it down and jacked up the passenger side. I was able to turn this side with a little less effort, but it still wasn't free wheeling or anything. I had the car in 1st gear and marked the belt thinking that if I was turning the engine the belt would move. It didn't. I marked the drive shaft in front of the diff, but it wasn't moving either.

Any advice based on that? I am still lost. I would have assumed that I could have moved one side (the broken halfshaft side) with little effort and the other side would not have moved. Is my assumption wrong?

Thanks for the help!

Eric

 

[bgbassplyr]

You may have broken the pinion shaft. Separate the drive shaft from the rear end and try to pull the pinion flange out of the housing and/or rotate the flange and see if the wheels turn or the flange turns and the wheels don't. If the pinion shaft is broken, just replace the rear end. Easy way out, IMO.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

I don't know how to include a link from my touch-pad, but look at moss motors rear axle/diff page item number 50. There is a key that if broken would act the way you describe. Its a $3.95 part, but the bad news is how difficult it is to get at. -not to mention that it's not the only possibility. -but I'd check there first. It would be easier to replace that than the whole rear end/brakes etc.

if it is either one of the keys, you will need a press to get the hub apart, but it can be done without taking apart the entire rear end.

Good luck,
jerry

 

[6969ronin6969]

Jerry,

Thanks for looking into that for me. unfortunately the key (part 50) is for the later Girling axle. I don't have that part on the Lockheed unit as both ends of the half shaft are splined. Good thought though.

TR3Driver (or anyone else), can you tell me the width of the TR3A Girling axle compared to the TR4 and from where to where is that measurement? I might have a line on one, but before I drive 3-4 hours i'd like to get the seller to double check the width for me.

Thanks again and if you have any comments on my latest test results from last night, please let me know.

Eric