TR2/3/3A Fuel Delivery Issue

[M_Pied_Lourd]

Hi Guys,

A follow up to my post regarding the sediment bowl gasket...

Ok. Bit of background. Swapped back to SU carbs from Webers this morning. Took the car out for a drive and it ran very well until just about a block away on the return to my house. As I pulled in the driveway, it was idling poorly and eventually stalled...

Had a quick look and noticed that my glass inline fuel filter that I have installed in front of the carbs was empty...had a look at the sediment bowl and figured that I would remove it to clean a small amount of debris from the bottom of the bowl and while I was there, check the screen.

Reinstalled the sediment bowl and it filled with gas as I primed it with the lever on the pump. I was able to get the glass filter to fill with fuel again and started the car. It ran perfectly for 3-4 minutes and then the glass filter started to empty again and the car stalled out..the sediment bowl was still full of gas. I popped the float bowl covers off and there was gas there as well.

So, bit of a puzzler as to why it won't run with fuel in the bowls...also, why the glass filter wants to empty. Seems to be worse when the car is mid range on the temperature guage.

I was hoping to take it to a show tomorrow but that's not looking good at this point....

Do you think the pump might be heading south?

Any thoughts?

Cheers
Tush

 

[CJD]

Sounds like either a weak pump or vapor lock. If the tank is not full, try putting some fresh top end gas in it and see if that helps (vapor lock). If not, then the pump may be going bad.

I would investigate dirt in the bowls, but it sounds like you covered that by checking and using a decent filter.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

I also have a glass fuel filter just in front of the carbs. When the engine is hot, and I shut it off, I can actually see the fuel percolate and bubble in the filter. (It looks like a freshly poured draft Guinness, only lighter.) The air bubble in the filter should not be a problem, as long as fuel is in the bowls. But I also think vapor lock can result if the fuel line is not routed properly from the pump to the carbs. It shouldn't go any higher than required, and shouldn't touch the block or the thermostat housing. There should be a rubber insulator between the line and the mount near the thermostat housing.

This is the stage of your restoration that you find all sorts of things that you didn't notice earlier. It's probably something really simple, and you'll be able to go to the show. I'll cross both my fingers for you.

Jer

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

Yeah I'm thinking it might be the pump. I just took the one off the 59....not sure if I have the energy to remove the one on the 60 and install the one from the 59...been working on the car since 7:30 am...

So another question...a what would you do scenario.

So, I've got a new Moss made in Taiwan pump or an original AC pump from the 59. What would you install?

Cheers
Tush

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

I also have a glass fuel filter just in front of the carbs. When the engine is hot, and I shut it off, I can actually see the fuel percolate and bubble in the filter. (It looks like a freshly poured draft Guinness, only lighter.) The air bubble in the filter should not be a problem, as long as fuel is in the bowls. But I also think vapor lock can result if the fuel line is not routed properly from the pump to the carbs. It shouldn't go any higher than required, and shouldn't touch the block or the thermostat housing. There should be a rubber insulator between the line and the mount near the thermostat housing.

This is the stage of your restoration that you find all sorts of things that you didn't notice earlier. It's probably something really simple, and you'll be able to go to the show. I'll cross both my fingers for you.

Jer

Thanks, I'll will have a look again at the routing. I'm pretty sure it's good but can't hurt to look at it!

Cheers
Tush

 

[Geo Hahn]

...It ran perfectly for 3-4 minutes and then the glass filter started to empty again and the car stalled out..the sediment bowl was still full of gas. I popped the float bowl covers off and there was gas there as well...

It is natural to blame the last thing you worked on but keep an open mind.

If the engine dies and the fuel bowls are still full then you may have problem other than the fuel pump.

Is everything (pistons) moving freely in those carbs? Spark look good when you crank? Carb linkage actually moving the butterflies on both carbs?

 

[CJD]

Use the one that works the best, of course!?! Sorry...couldn't resist.

I always lean towards the most original, but that's just me. Most parts from Taiwan are OK, but they aren't know for their quality. Whichever you use, be sure to operate the diaphram from the engine side lever a few times and ensure it pushes a bit of air, usually with a little "burping" sound as the check valves operate. If the '59 pump was working when you took it off, that gives another vote for that one.

 

[karls59tr]

I've had excellent results with a made in USA Carter electric fuel pump. The pump also saves the starter because you don't have to crank the engine as much to start because the fuel is there instantly.

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

It is natural to blame the last thing you worked on but keep an open mind.

If the engine dies and the fuel bowls are still full then you may have problem other than the fuel pump.

Is everything (pistons) moving freely in those carbs? Spark look good when you crank? Carb linkage actually moving the butterflies on both carbs?

Thanks Geo, will pop the air cleaners off and have a look. Everything was good this morning before the drive..air valve falling and not hanging, linkage was operating at is should...but, things change!

Cheers
Tush

 

[6TTR3A]

Tush,
I guess it's too late for the show but here's my 2 (where's the cent sign?)
The China pump looks pretty but the axle that holds the cam lever on is installed by the factory, then permanently swagged into place. Swagging pot metal is never a good idea. Anyway if the spacers aren't exactly right the the cam lever misses the cam lobe. (falls off to the side)
That's the best case. As often as not, the swagging gives away, the axle dis-locates & the pump is trash. I've seen them fail right out of the box after hand testing the cam lever. So, rebuild an original if you have one. The original AC part number (stamped on the bottom by the diaphragm bolts) is 0108 but 4417 will also work. Other members will diagnose your basic problem, my post is about the after-market fuel pump . (TRF sells a rebuild kit that is modern fuel compatible and includes the oil seal.)
Frank

 

[Geo Hahn]

Taiwan? China? The most recent pump I have seen from Moss (a friend bought one) was made in Turkey. Identifiable as they used a plastic thumb-nut on the bale holding the glass bowl.

Anyway - I only use originals as rebuilding is easy, the pump looks right, the threads are correct and the lever pin cannot fall out (secured either with e-clips or by being trapped as the pump is mounted to the block.

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

Well, yesterday evening I ordered a Facet "cube" pump that I'm going to try out instead of the mechanical pump. Originally, this car came to me with an electric SU pump installed so I'll be going full circle.

I'll let you know how I make out...I might even make a video of the installation.

Cheers
Tush

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

Put a little video up today if you want to weigh in

https://youtu.be/948_1qE6f_o

Cheers
Tush

 

[poolboy]

I'm glad you found the problem was with the pump, Tush.
In your video, you discussed the choices you were faced with.
I'd be all in favor of the mechanical pump.
And, as far as carbs are concerned, the only objection and it's not really an objection as much as a consideration when it comes to the Webers...they may have been tuned for the track considering the car's history, so you may have some street tuning to do inside those carbs...if you're willing, I know you're able...otherwise I'd leave the SU's.

 

[Geo Hahn]

I have always used the stock pump and SUs and see no reason to change. I do carry a generic electric pump that, with a pair hoses (1/4" and 5/16") I can use as a quick get-me-home fix.

Sounds like a valve has failed on that one pump. I usually test in situ with the suck & blow method. That stripped screw might come out without much trouble.

BTW your tonneau has the gore in it that allows it to be neatly tucked behind the seat - but only if the forward section is undone from the LTD peg:

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

Hi PB,

Actually, the car was raced with the SU's....I picked up the webers later on. In the parts bin that came with the car was an old scotch tin filled with little pill bottles with different needle selections for the carbs. Pretty cool!
Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers
Tush

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Seriously? Two nuts and two lines will have a mechanical pump back in. You could be driving your TR3 in the time it takes to make a video. You can always decide to change anything at any later time, but the quickest test, is just to try an original pump.

I wouldn't be too worried about how much the pump sucks. It's gravity fed and probably works better with fluid in it. I'd look at the output side closer, but if it sucks, it pushes too. My vote is you try another. The only other real concern is that the arm is positioned properly on the cam.

It's looking great. Try not to let the little bugs become bigger bugs.

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

I have always used the stock pump and SUs and see no reason to change. I do carry a generic electric pump that, with a pair hoses (1/4" and 5/16") I can use as a quick get-me-home fix.

Sounds like a valve has failed on that one pump. I usually test in situ with the suck & blow method. That stripped screw might come out without much trouble.

BTW your tonneau has the gore in it that allows it to be neatly tucked behind the seat - but only if the forward section is undone from the LTD peg:

Thanks Geo. Appreciate the comments. I've been meaning to get the tonneau cover off and just go back to the hood stick cover. You are right, I should do a better job of tucking it in.

Cheers
Tush

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

Seriously? Two nuts and two lines will have a mechanical pump back in. You could be driving your TR3 in the time it takes to make a video. You can always decide to change anything at any later time, but the quickest test, is just to try an original pump.

I wouldn't be too worried about how much the pump sucks. It's gravity fed and probably works better with fluid in it. I'd look at the output side closer, but if it sucks, it pushes too. My vote is you try another. The only other real concern is that the arm is positioned properly on the cam.

It's looking great. Try not to let the little bugs become bigger bugs.

Roger that! It would be the easier route to be sure !

Cheers
Tush

 

[Don Elliott]

Tush - I have heard that many TR3A owners had the same problem and they solved the problem once they removed that blasted glass fuel filter just in front of the water pump where the fuel line goes towards the front SU.

I never had one on my 1958 TR3A in 58 years and never had your problem. Not only that, someone mentioned something above about a pump or such not being original. The glass filter that fills with air is not original either. Just take it out.

Cheers

Don