Ethanol in fuel

[Baz]

Here in central Il, corn/soy based ethanol has managed to find its way into nearly all the gas stations, all blends and e85 is getting a little too common also.
I was told early on to avoid any ethanol at whatever percentage, but that's getting really hard to do, even the higher octane fuels have a small percentage of this stuff in it. I can only see this spreading across the country as more refineries are being built locally, so is there something I can add to the tank that nullifies the effects of ethanol, or am I just going to break down and get a no lead kit and deal with it?

 

[Trevor Jessie]

I buy whatever is at the station closest when my tank nears empty. I figure I'll deal with problems caused by modern fuels when/if they occur.

 

[77_MG_Midget]

There's a thread on the triumph board about this subject. You can read it here: https://www.britishcarforum.com/ubbthread...p;page=0#234767

Basically, most gasolines in major cities will have ethanol. It can only be 10% max by federal law. I personally don't think it has any ill effects on older cars at a 90/10 mixture. Never run e-85 in a non-flex fuel vehicle. It will damage the fuel system.

 

[Morris]

Also, if your car is not set up for e85 (proper needling, compression and spark curve) your fuel economy will be AWWWWWWFUL.

And it can melt your hoses and seals if they have any natural rubber in them as well as eat away at certain types of metal alloys commonly used in old carbs.

 

[RobSelina]

for a car built for E85, how does the performance compare to gasoline?

 

[Morris]

From what I have read (I have no personal experience) it's not so hot. To truly take advantage of e85, you need high compression. Since most flex fuel cars are designed to run on regular unleaded (it always confuses me when I say that) high compression is out of the question. So slightly less power and fuel economy should be expected on most flex fuel vehicles.

 

[Trevor Jessie]

But... what if a car was built to run on only e85? How would performance compare? And could we ever make enough ethanol if 90% of the cars ran e85?

 

[RobSelina]

I've heard really mixed things about Ethanol production. In short, it may take more energy to make the ethanol than is produced through it's combustion, so it's a looser. It's definitely got political backing, but I need to learn more about the production methods before I buy into flex fuels....

 

[RobSelina]

[ QUOTE ]
From what I have read (I have no personal experience) it's not so hot. To truly take advantage of e85, you need high compression. Since most flex fuel cars are designed to run on regular unleaded (it always confuses me when I say that) high compression is out of the question. So slightly less power and fuel economy should be expected on most flex fuel vehicles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gather electronic valve actuator engines are getting closer to reality. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, basically a computer controlled electronic actuator would replace the camshaft system. This would allow for ideal valve timing at all RPM and loads.

What I wonder, is if this technology could be used to allow variable compression ratios? By leaving the intake valve open during a portion of the compression stroke, a very high compression ratio engine could actually have a variable compression ratio (changed by the timing of the intake valve closing). Could improve flex fuel performance?


This could be jiberish, I'm just thinking out loud /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

 

[Trevor Jessie]

Excuse my ignorance, but how do VVC engines adjust the valve lift/duration?

 

[RobSelina]

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm.../whatsvtec.html

It's basically two camshaft profiles in systems like the VTEC. It's not continuously variable. On most hondas I've driven, you can distinctly feel the VTEC system switch at around 3500 RPM.

 

[RobSelina]

interesting, honda now has a three stage system:

https://www.leecao.com/honda/vtec/3stagevtec.html

 

[Morris]

Trevor: If I remember right, stoichiometric AFR for ethanol is in the area of 11:1 (don't hold me to that). So it is unlikely that we will ever be able to get the same power and economy ratios that we get with gas. As with gasoline, you can get great economy if you are willing to sacrifice power. But... the great thing about e85 and pure ethanol is that it has a much higher flash point than gas. And it burns cooler and longer. So it makes a great high performance fuel.

Rob: I think it's really hard to compare apples to apples on the economy of ethanol. Ethanol must be distilled (using heat) just like gasoline. So the energy out to energy in ratio for gas distillation is much better than that of ethanol. But, with ethanol, there are no exteranlities like long expensive Middle Eastern Military actions, which, we don't necessarily pay for at the pump, but believe me brother we will pay for it.

Regardless, the real future of ethanol is in garbage. Currently, technology is being developed that will allow us to break down fiber wastes (lawn clippings, corn stalks, food waste) into something that can be used to make ethanol. As I understand it, this process also yeilds combustable gasses that can be used in the distillation process. (don't quote me on that). Sooo... in the near term, ethonal from corn stock is not very economically feasible. But on the plus side, it get's us growing crops at home again. Which, given the current world politcal environment, could come in real handy.

 

[77_MG_Midget]

[ QUOTE ]
for a car built for E85, how does the performance compare to gasoline?

[/ QUOTE ] & [ QUOTE ]
But... what if a car was built to run on only e85? How would performance compare? And could we ever make enough ethanol if 90% of the cars ran e85?

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I've read and been told by friends that have used e-85, performance and milage leave a lot to be desired.

The problem with ethanol (grain alcohol) is that it does not have the thermal power of gasoline. Therefore, it takes more if it, then gasoline, to move your vehicle the same distance. I've heard of up to a 20% decrease in fuel economy. Since E-85 is not that much cheaper at the pump, it actually ends up costing more to travel the same distance using E-85.

The only upside to adding ethanol to gasoline (other than the lower emmissions from the oxygenation) is that ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline, usually above 100 octane. So, by mixing 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline, they are able to increase the octane of the gas.

And, ethanol is not as combustible (volitole) in a cold engine. That's why they mix 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, so that the ethanol will begin to burn and allow the engine to even start.

I've also heard recently that studies are showing that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than you get from running a vehicle on it. Doesn't sound too good in my book.

I'm waiting to convert my midget to hydrogen fuel cell....
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

 

[Morris]

I just read a book on hydrogen powered vehicles. The authors claim that in a cost comparison, runnig hydrogen with current technology would be the equivilant of paying roughly $9.50 for a gallon of gasoline. Ouch.

But all this stuff will get cheaper as production and infrastructure gets set up.

And anyway, it's not like we have a choice. With China and India getting as hooked on the car as we are, the days of internal combustion are numbered.

 

[leecreek]

CLOSED NO GAS

Alternatives hopefully will be available.

 

[RobSelina]

Hydrogen burning is emissions free but it takes enormous amounts of energy to produce with water.

The only way it's truly environmentally friendly is if it's driven from a green power source like solar or hydro electric, but to get the sort of quantities of green power we'd need for that we're talking about replacing those corn fields with solar panel fields /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

When we started the conceptual design of the project I currently work on, we looked very seriously at the costs of wind and solar power (we have a plentiful source of either resource) but we just couldn't afford the cost. The initial capital investment was on the order of 5X to 10X what grid power would cost us, and even operational costs were in the 2X range (I believe natural gas is the main fuel source for the power grid we're on).

Rather sad conclusion, I hope it improves in time.

Of note, while doing this research I did find some very interesting applications of alternative construction methods and green energy that would be wonderful for a home, but still only practical for rural 'off the grid' applications. If the wife and I build a house, we'll probably elect to buy cheap land (with no utility connections) and use some of these methods (solar power, rainwater harvesting, passive heating and cooling, gray water recycling, etc).

 

[Baz]

Our fleet at work uses only E85 because it is 'cheaper' than gas right now, but we have to fill our vehicles more often, and I agree that a 20% reduction in mileage is about right.
Problem is, the stuff is popping up all over Illinois and taking over the higher octane pumps, with the political backing already mentioned, and the amount of corn and soybeans everywhere, this stuff will ruin my fun.

 

[Billm]

What I have heard (note that this is 2nd hand at best!!) the real future of corn type ethanol is its use in diesel applications. The diesel fuel takes far less energy to produce and returns more than E85. This is hearsay but sounds logical to me.
Bill