Electrical Question and Possible Dilemma

[Guest]

Hello Folks,

I told you when I joined this forum that I would have alot of bonehead questions. I have another one.

When I first got the car, the wipers would make two swipes across the windshield then give up the ghost. When I took the car in for the head work, Ed noticed the "tacky" ground wire (bullet fitting sliding into two loose thingees), so he soldered me a nice ground. Well and good. On the way home from his garage, I decided to try the wipers, as it was raining (good ol' Rain-X). Well, they made two swipes and gave up the ghost. <span style="font-weight: bold">DOES THIS SOUND LIKE ELECTRICAL OR MECHANICAL?</span> What should I look for?

Now my real dilemma. It all started after I put on the vacuum advance. The car does not run right, almost as if a spark plug or two were unplugged. Someone told me to try turning the little screw in the "Advance" direction, listening for the engine RPMs to top out, then retard it a little. Well, I cranked and cranked on the Advance, and nothing happened with the RPMs. The engine got hot, so I turned off the ignition and it just kept running. I pulled all the spark plug wires and it kept on running. I stuck my finger up my butt and it kept on running. So, I put it in reverse and let the clutch out with the brake on. It stopped running. In a panic, I called Ed, and he explained "dieseling" to me. I had advanced it too far and it got hot. I am hoping that I have not burned up the head again. If I have, the car will sit, probably for a year, until my Social Security kicks in.

So, today, I cranked the retard nut all the way back, and advanced it a little at a time until I could finally get it to start. It still runs horribly; I dont think that it would make it around the block. I do not want to drive it anywhere to get it fixed. I have asked a club member to give me a call tonight and see if he can come over and look at it sometime in the future. I HAVE ONLY TOUCHED TWO THINGS: THE VACUUM AND THE FINE-TUNE ON THE DISTRIBUTOR. I HAVE NOT TURNED THE DISTRIBUTOR, OR TRIED TO ACT LIKE A MECHANIC.

One good thing came out of this, in case I have to sell the car: I FOUND THE "SMALL COOLANT LEAK" that came with the car. How I did it? I drove it until it became a LARGE coolant leak. I never would have found it otherwise: it was behind and underneath a hose clamp (one of those darn original-two-wire clamps)at the bend that goes into the bypass.

As usual, I look forward to hearing from you re. my windshield wipers. Peace.

 

[Geo Hahn]

By 2 swipes do you mean once over and once back?

If yes, then I would guess the drive head is mal-adjusted or the wiring faulty as what you are getting is one cycle of the park function rather than continuos running.

It's been a few years since I have been in there so perhaps someone else recalls specifics such as what happens if the red wire is broken.

 

[tdskip]

Hi George - deep breath. Ignition timing, which is what you are messing with, can make a car run great or awful. As you have found out.

The key is to have a good base line. Do you have a timing gun? It would help us understand where the car is now and then help provide some coaching from there.

"Peace" - cool man. Right on. (not teasing you - being a SoCal guy....)

 

[TR3driver]

On the wiper motor, I would suggest a systematic approach. Park the car someplace it's not raining

turn the key on and pull the wiper switch. Let the wipers run until they stop, and use a test light or DMM to check for voltage across terminals 1 and 2 at the motor. The 'ground' is irrelevant at this point, as the wiper switch is supposed to ground terminal 1, and the ignition switch supplies power to terminal 2. If there is juice, the problem is inside the motor or in the mechanical linkage to the wipers. If not, there is a problem in the wiring or switches.

If you don't own a DMM (Digital MultiMeter), I would strongly suggest you buy one. It is simply required equipment to own an LBC, in my opinion. And a cheap one will do just fine, eg https://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92020

Dieseling was a common problem for me with the 3A, especially if the motor was a little hot, until I got into the habit of letting out the clutch in 4th gear just after turning off the key (foot firmly on the brake of course). With a little practice, it becomes so natural and smooth that you won't know if it wanted to diesel or not. The project TR3 seems to feel the same way.

Hard to say what is going on with the way it runs; but as I said before, I doubt the problem is connecting the advance. You should be able to see the vacuum module move as you turn the nut; but don't expect to hear much difference for just several full turns of the nut.

IMO the proper way to find the final 'right' setting is to drive the car until the engine is fully warm (not just the temp gauge comes up, but oil and radiator hot as well), and then floor the throttle while doing only 25-30 mph in 4th gear. If you can hear the engine 'ping', the timing is too far advanced. Retard it until no ping.

 

[Guest]

Thanks alot, guys. I will try BOTH things tomorrow. Also, I will head for Harbor Freight, as I also want to pick up some leather punches that do the big holes.

I'll keep you posted.

I'm beat - I just sat up and watched Tippi Hedren in "Marnie." I should have married her when I had the chance.

 

[TR3driver]

what happens if the red wire is broken.

If it was just broken, it would disable the 'park' function. The motor would just stop wherever it was when you turned off the wiper switch.

If it was grounded (or broken and grounded), then the motor will run all the time when the ignition is on.

 

[Don Elliott]

George - For the distributor advance, remove the distributor cap and check to see if the loop for the advance/retard link (like a 1/16" diameter close-wound spiral spring with a loop on the end) is connected to the vertical post on the points plate. If not, all you have to do is lift the looped end up higher than the top of the post and drop the looped end onto the post.

The outlet from the thermostat aluminium housing for the by-pass hose that goes down to the new by-pass plug you just installed is tapered and the tighter you tighten that clamp, the hose will slide down that taper. If you add a "gasket maker" sealer to prevent the leak, the slippery nature of the gasket maker will cause that by-pass hose to slip off even easier, the more you try to tighten the hose clamp.

Don't ask how I know this.

Remove that hose - or at least the top end and take a file to the aluminium casting for the thermostat housing. File a circular notch all around the casting so the hose is no longer sitting on a taper, but sit the hose over this new V groove, then tighten down on the clamp. The V grove will hold the hose from slipping off. You may have to remove the housing to file that groove all around. Make sure you have a spare gasket or three before you do this.

 

[TR3driver]

Also, I will head for Harbor Freight,

Wouldn't hurt to pick up a timing light while you're there, if you don't already have one.
https://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3343

 

[Andrew Mace]

Is a timing light really necessary on these cars, which usually are "static" timed?

 

[ekamm]

That's what I thought as well. You could use that to but a simple wire tester works as well.

 

[angelfj1]

Is a timing light really necessary on these cars, which usually are "static" timed?

Andy: I have never found a timing light to be of much use on these cars, except for the TR250 which has an advance and retard, and in this case I wanted to see if the retard was working.

For advance what I usually do a 4 cylinder TR is to advance the distributor using the thumb wheel adjustment, and keep doing this until the engine pings on acceleration. Then I back off until there is no pinging. That's all I do, and with variations in fuel and so forth this seems like a valid approach.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Frank, we agree! I probably should have said these "earlier" cars, as I know a timing light can be useful on the later emissions-controlled cars where "dynamic" timing spec's are given, and/or one wants to check advance/retard function as you note.

 

[MGTF1250Dave]

Aloha George,

Here is a concise description of the static timing proceedure:

 

[TR3driver]

Is a timing light really necessary on these cars, which usually are "static" timed?

IMO it remains a valuable troubleshooting and test tool; even if you don't use it for "setting" ignition timing. It easily shows you things like excess spark scatter (which can cause some really strange engine behavior) and whether the centrifugal advance is working or not. Combined with a MityVac, it also gives an "end to end" test of the vacuum advance mechanism.

A friend once brought me a recently purchased TR6 that didn't run very well, and the timing light instantly showed that the centrifugal advance was sick. When we pulled the dizzy apart, we found that the DPO had apparently 'lost' the nut for the points and left it inside, where it had jammed into the mechanism and pretty well destroyed it.

And it does give you a double-check that your static timing effort was at least in the ballpark.

 

[martx-5]

Aloha George,

Here is a concise description of the static timing proceedure:

Too concise actually. I think that write up leaves a lot of important information out....

Here's a write up of setting the timing on the TRactor engines that I posted many moons ago. I would suggest doing this procedure first, and then make your adjustments afterwards using the knurled wheel, as you will then know exactly where you're at.


TR3 timing is supposed to be set statically...without the engine running.

The procedure as I do it...Make sure your points are set to spec first. This is always important whenever setting the timing, as a change in in the point specs affects the timing.

1. On the side of the distributor is a knurled nut that is used to advance and retard the timing. You will see an A and an R with an arrow. There are also graduations there. One of the graduations is longer then the rest. That's the midpoint...set the timing adjuster there.
2. Bring the engine up to the timing mark on the pulley by turning the engine clockwise as looking from the front. If you go by it, don't back off. Go around again, as you don't want to introduce timing chain slop into this. Now the engine is at TDC.
3.Loosen the clamp on the dizzy.
4. Hook up a test light or voltmeter to the point side of the coil, and turn on the ignition.
5. If the test light is on, turn the dizzy CCW until the light goes out, and then turn it back (CW) until it just goes on.
If the test light is out, turn the dizzy CW until it just goes on.
6.Tighten the dizzy clamp.
7.Turn the knurled nut in the advance direction 2 graduations. Each graduation is two degrees.

Timing is now set for 4 deg BTDC. You can use the knurled nut to make any running adjustments now, and always know where your timing is set.
_________

 

[DrEntropy]

THAT'S the way to static time.

Tho I thought the "clicks" of the vernier were "finer" than two degrees. But I'm coming from a 25D.

 

[Moseso]

The "clicks" of the wheel are WAAAAY finer than two degrees. What is being referred to, here, are the "hash marks" on the body of the vacuum advance unit, where it enters the body of the diz. Each one of <span style="font-style: italic">them</span> is 2 deg.

As a total aside...
When I bought my first car (a '57 TR3, as it happens) from my freshman roommate, for $200 + my bicycle, he showed me how to tune it up and change the oil. The method he used to static time the car is very "down-and-dirty" but works. I continued to use it on all my air cooled VWs & TRs -- and still do it. No light is required. Set the crank where you want it, same as all the methods already discussed. Instead of disconnecting the low tension lead and hooking up a light, just turn on the ignition and rotate the distributor body -- as in all the previously discussed methods. When the points open, you will hear a snap and see a small spark at the points. Stop moving. Turn off the ignition. Tighten the distributor. If you want to check your work, rotate the engine 1-1/2 turns. Turn on the ignition and then do the 1/2 last turn slowly, until you hear/see the spark. Stop! Observe where the timing mark is. Repeat all this as necessary. All the usual caveats about leaving the ignition on too long (overheating the coil, burning the points) apply. Just turn off the ignition between work phases and you'll be OK.

I regret to inform all who may disapprove of this method, that I just taught it to my son as a way to tune his Kawasaki cycle. We got it running a lot better that day...

 

[Don Elliott]

Moses - That's the way I have always done it. For over 51 years on my 1958 TR3A, I have never used a timing light. I have a neighbour as well as a TR3A friend (owner), both who brought over their timing lights to do it the "correct and easy way" and after wasting about 3 hours trying every time, they gave up. My TR runs sweet.

 

[Adrio]

The Moseso method combined with Randall's ping test is how I have done it on my TR3A since 1980 and it has worked great.

 

[martx-5]

The "clicks" of the wheel are WAAAAY finer than two degrees. What is being referred to, here, are the "hash marks" on the body of the vacuum advance unit, where it enters the body of the diz. Each one of <span style="font-style: italic">them</span> is 2 deg.

Thanks for pointing that out...

IIRC, it takes twenty of those "clicks" to move 1 deg. But who's counting! :laugh: