Bugsy II - Planning some Welding - Part II

[Jim_Gruber]

Now a deep dive into the trunk. Bugsy II was hit in the rear it appears as he received a complete trunk floor, and a complete rear clip. The is damage inside of the trunk that was repaired with Pop Rivets. Yep pop rivets. Since it is my plan to put Bugsy II on a rotisserie. I need opinions on what to do with the repairs coming in this thread and how to best address them. The last thing I want to have happen is to have him up on the rotisserie and have the rear clip separate from the rest of the body. This damage I believe is what caused what was originally a RHD BE, No L in the VIN #, to become a LHD BE and emigrate to Quebec sometime in the late '70's. I can see evidence on dash where RHD Steering wheel was connected etc.
4) Damage on PS behind the wheel hump

There is a strange bolt. May be anchor point for the trunk floor underneath. Rust at bottom of wheel hump and those are pop rivets. I'm assuming holding trunk floor to panel below. How best to fix, need advice. Thinking cutting with grinder and welding a plate over the top. Do I need to attach to panel below in some way. How about the body seam where the brace comes in from the top.

5) Right Rear Floor - Accident damage.

This is ugly back here. Again thinking Dremel tool and cut out and weld in patch panel. Likely needs to attach to back deck or to the floor panel below. Advice needed.

6) Battery Box repair with pop rivets

This should be simplest I think. Tack weld and grind off rivets. On the side will need to weld from engine compartment side.

Rest of Bugsy II is in pretty good shape. Just some advice please on how to tackle some tricks stuff. Thanks in advance.

 

[64rocksprite]

Jim - Since no one else has chimed in, here are some ideas to chew on (and perhaps someone will point out several faults with the ideas)

This is an interesting one.. so you're saying there are two layers of floor in the boot/trunk?
I would be inclined to simplify to one floor..so I can see what is going on - what is connected to what.

On pic #4, you could attach the floor in that area by drilling through the flange (but not the floor) and doing sort-of a plug weld to attach the floor to the structure. On #5, if you can swing it..a 4-1/2" angle grinder with a metal cutting wheel works well for cutting large sections..and you can finish the corners (on a square-shaped cut out section) with the dremel. You can dremel the whole thing..but you'll eat wheels like crazy. From the looks of what you're tackling, I think you'd want a 4 or 4-1/2" grinder if you don't have one.. just a word of warning, keep good control of the grinder..it'll be tough in that tight space.

#6 Can you show us the engine bay side of the battery tray? I've never done this...but am wondering if you could cut the pop rivets off, punch them out, leaving holes through the two pieces. Then, using a brass backing on one side, plug weld these together as well(?). I've seen where using a brass plate will help prevent blow through when but welding..but I've never tried it in this manner. In theory, you could weld the very edges together, create a puddle held in place by the brass backing..then grind smooth.. I might be full of ka-ka on this one..I'd try it though!

 

[Hot Wings]

This should be simplest I think. Tack weld and grind off rivets. On the side will need to weld from engine compartment side.

Rest of Bugsy II is in pretty good shape. Just some advice please on how to tackle some tricks stuff. Thanks in advance.

I'm assuming that this is intended to be a driver rather than a show car? If so don't be afraid of "pop" rivets. The rivets shown are common hardware store variety and good for patching bird houses and garden sheds - not much else.

Using a proper structural "pop" rivet and some modern adhesive, available from the local auto body supply house, you can actually make a superior repair with regard to both corrosion and strength. The fact that it's easier to do and there is no warping or fire hazard are bonuses.

I've seen a lot of pictures on the internet of repairs done by welding along the full length of the repair panel. If you are stubbing in a patch with a butt joint then this may be appropriate. More often than not it's just a waste of time and materials. A row of "spot" welds made in the same pattern as the original with a MIG and 1/4" holes is all that is needed and far easier to finish. Use some weld through zinc primer, with lots of ventilation, to keep future corrosion to a minimum.

For an amateur in the home garage one of those little spot sand blasting units is good for cleaning up areas for repair, be it welded or bonded/riveted, and keeping the mess to a minimum.

I know it's probably more work and money than you were planning on but if I were doing this project I'd have to accept that the trunk repair will just have to be redone completely from scratch to get rid of the double panel. Do the hard bits first while you still have enthusiasm for the project.

Edit: 4" grinders do work well, but if you can borrow a plasma torch it's so much nicer. An air nibbler is another option for cutting out small sections.

 

[Trevor Jessie]

Keep it simple. Cut out the ugly/suspicious patches and weld in some that suit you.

 

[BlueMax]

If rust is showing coming out from under any frame or support structure and you really want to repair the car correctly I would invest in a digital inspection camera. Drill small holes in the structure in question to see if rust is inside. If your observations indicate rust you then can comprehensively determine how bad the situation is and where to cut to repair, otherwise cut big chunks out to view inside. This path will have to be your decision in your vision of what extent of repair you’re willing to devote.
https://www.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-67979.html

 

[Trevor Jessie]

I got a Whistler brand inspection camera as a gift. I do not think it is an expensive unit, but I've already found it useful on two occasions. I do not think I want to know what the inside of the Sprite sills look like (ignorance is bliss)

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Thanks guys any opinions on pics 1,2, or 3. #3 has me more worried than the trunk. And no this will be a driver moot as a show car.

 

[BlueMax]

Ah, gentleman lets not forget what forces are at hand here. We are dealing with a monocoque chassis, not a frame and body? Each component is dependent upon its adjacent structure. If one component is weekend then the modulus of the unit’s structural integrity is compromise. Even if you just want a driver to put around in the monocoque integrity shouldn’t be compromise. If you ignore the issues you will experience driveability issues, body fitment issues, chassis alignment issues with body sag. As previous mention, your vision and plan will need to be decided before work begins.

 

[Trevor Jessie]

Yup, Unibody cars can not be patched in a wreckless manner. However, I call BS that you can not patch a panel just because it is structural. This is especially true on these cars that are extremely rigid in stock form. I've seen examples of unibody cars failing because they were nothing but **** poor patches, but I've never seen anything to indicate a failure on a quality patch. I do not have an engineering degree, I'm not a professional welder, I'm not a metallurgist, I'm just a guy that does this for a hobby. I do drive (hard) over many miles and many years two spridgets that have been "cut and shut" and patched on top of that. The doors open and close fine no matter where I jack the car. I do not have any hard data to support my claim just anecdotal experience.

 

[Rut]

Jim,
I've used several different tools for cutting out bad sheet metal and they all work well, but create their own unique issues. The 41/2" grinder creates lots of sparks and smoke in enclosed places and is harder to control. Depending what I'm cutting I use a sawzall, jig saw, air nibbler, and shear. For control and depth of cut the air shear and jig saw are great. I use a harbor freight shear and it gives a very clean cut, but takes out about 3/16" kerf, the jig saw takes out less. I also use a harbor freight flanger/hole punch vs a drill to make the holes for puddle welds. The flanger is great for fitting parts, too.
Rut

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Rut I've got all of those already and all will be used. The idea of welding in the trunk is a little unnerving. Anyone got tips on ventilation back there while welding?

 

[Rut]

Rotisserie and cut/weld from the outside? The less you have to do inside that *ell hole the better!
Rut

 

[Hot Wings]

The idea of welding in the trunk is a little unnerving. Anyone got tips on ventilation back there while welding?

I've got no welding to do back there, but a lot of refinish work is going to require my personal attention. A dryer vent hose with a large computer cooling fan attached is one of my ideas to try.

It's been more than a few years since I was crawling around back there so my memory is rather dim and the car is not where I can inspect at the moment. I've pondered removing the complete rear outer body (fenders and center section as a unit) to make repairs easier and then spot welding it back on. The last time I worked some minor dents out of the rear I persuaded my younger brother climb in with the dolly and move it where I needed it. I don't think I can get him to do the same today. = :eagerness:

 

[Jim_Gruber]

I just crawled underneath Bugsy II and what I have on the back of the car is not a second floor but a series of let's call it 6" x 8" patch panels fully welded all the way across the back of the car and welded into the bottom of the bonnet. The ugly spot in the back corner was pop riveted in place and then fully welded all the way around. This was the fix for when Bugsy got hit in the rear end and I ended up with a complete new rear clip. This may be easier than I thought and will simply be a cleanup of what is back there already, cut off the rivets and clean up with a grinder. Will need lots of grinding back there on the outside to smooth things up but there was considerable welding wire used to tie the floor of the trunk into the back deck. Whoever did this know what he was doing when it was fixed. When the need boot was installed it was also deseamed at the same time and seals were brazed closed. IF I decide I want seams back there will need to glue on fender beads. I think it will be left deseamed as it does look nice.

I do know I feel more comfortable in putting it on a rotisserie and supporting not sure where yet, via the fenders or supporting via the bumper mount holes. I will need to do grinding on the back seam where trunk floor meets the boot and lower valence underneath. I also may need to do work around the right spring box. So decision time on where to mount and support the rear end for the rotisserie. In the mean time will get engine and tranny out and take a closer look at the battery box area. I do think that area plays a more important part for body stiffness than people think. Will get things re-welded properly without rivets.

 

[Blueghost]

When I saw picture 1 in the first post my first thought was, "a less than pretty 30 year old weld is, first of all, a 30 year old weld that it still holding. BUT, later pictures and posts reveal something not yet discussed. Cancer is Cancer, and it must be cured - today or tomorrow. I'm not a dipping proponent, but it has it's place, especially when done properly, and neutralized properly. Any layers of corrosion between any metal will come up again. Your project proves it.

Because you are going to use a rotisserie, you are in a best case scenario for repair. All cancer, even if structural, must be cut out/mechanically removed 100%. Any lap seams, layers, or ares that just can't be mechanically cleaned, must be chemically stopped, and neutralized. P.O.R. is temporary at best. It took me forever, but I just proudly completed my first total floor, cross members, floor stiffener, spring box/bulkhead doubler, replacement on my '60 Bug. Nearly all parts/panels are available from Moss. They are affordable and quality and fit is good. Because of uni-body, door bracing is a must. And work in as small an area as practical at one time. In my case, 20/30% of the floor was already missing. It will never be a show car. Nearly all parts/panels are available from Moss. They are affordable and quality and fit is good.

For me the bottom line is: A) Spend the time and dollars to cut ALL cancer. B) Don't spent time and $; have fun and drive it - hey, if it drove in it can probably drive out. C) As Steve and Trevor said, pass it on. Option "A" means that 30 years from now this will be the coolest car on the block. Besides that, you'll be able say "I did that." And while you're spending all that time on sheet metal, you won't be spending money on other stuff. Guarantee that if you do option "A" you'll learn a ton - I did. Next one will be half the time, or you'll do a better pre-buy to make sure there is no next time.
Blueghost.

 

[Rut]

Jim,
based on your work that's needed I would roll the car on its side, on a mattress or a couple of tires. Work on the trunk area, get it solid and put it on a rotisserie. I agree that any rust needs to be cut out and cut out back to good, full thickness metal.
Rut

 

[SaxMan]

Jim, I don't have any experience with welding and the only rotisserie experience I have is with a Cessna T-50 (or UC-78, or a Bamboo bomber). I guess the question would be why does your rotisserie mount for the rear have to be an "or"? If I was concerned about putting the car on a rotisserie because of structural integrity issues, I would try to support it using multiple contact points, maybe the fenders AND the bumper mounts? If you already have welding skills, then fabricating an appropriate mount shouldn't be that difficult?

 

[Hot Wings]

If I was concerned about putting the car on a rotisserie because of structural integrity issues, I would try to support it using multiple contact points,

This is a good point. There are 2 kinds of "rotisserie". The ones shown on most of the Sprite restoration sites using something like 2 engine rebuild stands should only be used for minor structural repair and as a convenience for cosmetic repair. If you intend to do any significant panel replacement on a uni-body then the rotisserie frame should be stiff enough to use as a reference and/or local support. Even then adding temporary door opening supports and diagonal braces in strategic locations is a good idea.

The fact that a BE can still function with the amount of rust that some have shows just how robust it's uni-body really is (compared to something like a 914) but there is no point taking chances?

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Support at rear will be a combination of wood and steel. Need to do some cogitating on best way to support. Looking at bottom of rear clip I can see nice welds every 1/2-3/4 of an inch on outside plus full welding to trunk floor via some pretty stout filler plates to are totally finish welded end to end across the bottom. In addition fenders and rear clip are deseamed and brazen together. I think things look a whole lot stronger than I thought back there.