California Emissions + 1980 MKIV 1500

[glemon]

I am afraid I can't help you with getting the spitfire passed for smog, it sounds like you have limited resources and not a huge amount of wrench time under your belt working on cars.

Puts you in kind of a perdiciment, one of those sticky wickets as the British might say.

It sure looks like a nice car, I would want to keep it too. Would suggest you join a local Triumph club and go to the next social event and they will inevitably ask the new guy what car he owns, at which point the new guy will say "I just bought a really nice Spitfire but I am having trouble getting it to pass smog" at which point ears will [censored] up and mouths will open and a team of "experts" will descend on you with advice and questions about the current state of the car.

However, you are not out of the woods yet. If you are lucky about half of those experts will actually be experts, the other half will think they are, of the good half you need to kind of probe around, and find the guy who actually has both the expertise and the next big hurdle, the time to help you out.

This may sound a little far fetched, but there really are guys like that out there, they enjoy working on these cars and they enjoy helping out, many are probably on this forum, but too far away to offer much more than advice. if they do help you out fetch wrenches, listen and learn, don't be afraid to get dirty when they come over. If you feel like a user or you are taking advantage by doing this that is OK, try to give back later in some way to the person or the club or something to pay it forward and keep the good Brit car Karma going.

 

[Gafirema]

Thank you everyone for the help and advice. I will be using this thread as a reference for some time to come I imagine. I really appreciate all the helpful advice and welcome as much as possible. @ Scott, I was trying to see if you would come down a bit in price, at the very least please don't go up on me! lol But honestly, I'm going to find out on Friday what all the previous owner had for spare parts and what all I might end up needing, so please hold on to those things tight if you can and I'll be letting you know, I might need all of them.

I'm also still curious about the information regarding bringing it up to "Federal" spec instead of "California" spec. It sounds like it might be just the loophole I need. If it only requires "Federal" specs, what will I need to do to it, a bit less work than CA specs?

Right now, I'm thinking the first thing I'm going to do is have a cat-converter put on and take it to the type of test station that was mentioned a few posts back. In fact I know of one and I know a person who uses them who's pretty lenient on passing people. I've also heard a lot of places don't check very closely depending on where you take it.

And once more, to whomever said it a few posts back, it won't be too terribly hard to put this stuff on with some tools? Time consuming, sure, but is it really confusing and advanced stuff if you have the Haynes manual? I should have a good 5-6 hours a day if not more I can work on the little guy out in the garage.

Yes, this looks like it will be quite an adventure indeed. I'll take it a step at a time.

 

[TR3driver]

And once more, to whomever said it a few posts back, it won't be too terribly hard to put this stuff on with some tools? Time consuming, sure, but is it really confusing and advanced stuff if you have the Haynes manual?

The part I'm not sure about is how much information the Haynes has on how your car should be configured. But asking here, or finding a local club member with a late Spit, should do the trick.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]I'm also still curious about the information regarding bringing it up to "Federal" spec instead of "California" spec. It sounds like it might be just the loophole I need. If it only requires "Federal" specs, what will I need to do to it, a bit less work than CA specs?[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing Dave and that earlier post are right, there is no California spec for a 1980 Spitfire. Had the same problem with my 1980 Chevy, GM couldn't make it pass with a manual transmission. Most cars had to go to fuel injection to meet the 1980 CA standard (hence Tom's post about "FI TR8") or at least introduce an ECU; and it tended to be ugly. The CA version of my Chevy had this weird electronically controlled carburetor and practically every piece was different than the 49 state model.

 

[Gafirema]

I'm guessing Dave and that earlier post are right, there is no California spec for a 1980 Spitfire. Had the same problem with my 1980 Chevy, GM couldn't make it pass with a manual transmission. Most cars had to go to fuel injection to meet the 1980 CA standard (hence Tom's post about "FI TR8") or at least introduce an ECU; and it tended to be ugly. The CA version of my Chevy had this weird electronically controlled carburetor and practically every piece was different than the 49 state model.

I see, but to bring it up to Federal Standards, would it be a good bit easier if that's all it requires being a Federal car? And being the age it is, will it be allowable to be a Federal Car here in California?

I'm almost wondering if it's even exempt from smog if that's the case. I had a family member at the DMV the other day ask them what would need to be brought in for a 1980 spitfire and the person there said I didn't need a smog for some reason or another. It could have just been misinformation or something I'm sure, so don't get mad at me, just interesting at the very least.

 

[TR3driver]

I see, but to bring it up to Federal Standards, would it be a good bit easier if that's all it requires being a Federal car?

Well, yes and no. Yes it will be easier because you won't have to mess with an ECU (Electronic Control Unit) plus all the wiring and sensors for it. But you will still have to install pretty much everything mentioned above.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] And being the age it is, will it be allowable to be a Federal Car here in California? [/QUOTE]I believe so, yes. I drove a Federal-spec 1980 Chevy with CA tags from 1984 through 2005 and no one ever said a word about it being Federal spec instead of CA.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]
I'm almost wondering if it's even exempt from smog if that's the case. I had a family member at the DMV the other day ask them what would need to be brought in for a 1980 spitfire and the person there said I didn't need a smog for some reason or another. It could have just been misinformation or something I'm sure, so don't get mad at me, just interesting at the very least. [/QUOTE]
Not sure what that is about. Anything from model year 1975 onwards has to pass smog inspection every two years. There are a few exceptions to that rule, but I don't know of any that would apply to your Spitfire.

Unless maybe you want to convert it to run on electricity, which actually sounds like a fun project to me.

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[Darrell_Walker]

Anything from model year 1975 onwards has to pass smog inspection every two years. There are a few exceptions to that rule, but I don't know of any that would apply to your Spitfire.

Unless maybe you want to convert it to run on electricity, which actually sounds like a fun project to me.

Are propane powered cars still exempt in CA from smog testing?

 

[tdskip]

Unless maybe you want to convert it to run on electricity, which actually sounds like a fun project to me.

That would be a great project actually Randall, maybe a SCTOA project?

 

[tdskip]

And once more, to whomever said it a few posts back, it won't be too terribly hard to put this stuff on with some tools? Time consuming, sure, but is it really confusing and advanced stuff if you have the Haynes manual? I should have a good 5-6 hours a day if not more I can work on the little guy out in the garage.

Yes, this looks like it will be quite an adventure indeed. I'll take it a step at a time.

If you are going for it make sure you have a punch list of what you need, have sourced everything and have a plan. If you get 1/2 way done and run of of steam/parts you'll end up with a car that isn't worth much anywhere (google "abandoned project").

Continue to photo document everything.

Consider joining https://clubs.hemmings.com/frameset.cfm?club=sandiegotriumph but "earn" the right for their help rather than expecting it (clubs are like a bank, making a deposit before trying to withdrawal usually works better).

Make sure to swing by;

https://www.sandiegobritishcarday.org/

 

[cheseroo]

I see, but to bring it up to Federal Standards, would it be a good bit easier if that's all it requires being a Federal car? And being the age it is, will it be allowable to be a Federal Car here in California?

Yes, it will be allowable to bring this Federal Car into California. You will have no issues with that. As Randall and others pointed out, this rule was in place for new cars back in the 80's when carmakers were making 2 versions of their cars, 49 state (Federal) and CA. Even back then there were exemptions available if you truly did relocate. The regulation was intended to keep CA people from popping over one state to pick up a brand new hotted up Mecum Trans-Am with 4 speed and bringing it home. Not an issue now, too much time has passed. You do not need to modify a Federal car so that it has the same equipment as an CA car. It only needs whatever was on it from new. Even if it was a CA car and you only had Federal equipment installed, you would have to be the unluckiest person in the world to run into the inspector who would, could and did figure that out.

I'm almost wondering if it's even exempt from smog if that's the case. I had a family member at the DMV the other day ask them what would need to be brought in for a 1980 spitfire and the person there said I didn't need a smog for some reason or another. It could have just been misinformation or something I'm sure, so don't get mad at me, just interesting at the very least.

As an owner of a 76 TR6, it would be nice if it was exempt but that isn't the case with my car and it's certainly not true of an 80 Spit (unless of course it was the ultra rare Diesel Spit ) However, there are still counties in CA that do not require a smog certificate and even some cities within some counties that do not require one (including some of rural San Diego county.) Hint - It would be real fortunate if you decided to go live with some "family members" who live in one of those areas for a while. You might enjoy it enough to consider registering your car while living there.
Some of the answers to your DMV smog questions can be answered here.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

All the parts being quoted are for FED, since, apparently, there are no CA smog parts for 1980.

Make a list, get your parts, get some help lined up, start swapping bits out, get it running, and do a pre-test, then come back with results.

 

[TR3driver]

Are propane powered cars still exempt in CA from smog testing?

I believe so; but apparently you need a CARB (California Air Resources Board, our equivalent of the EPA) exemption for the propane conversion on your car. You can't just bolt on any old propane carb & tank to avoid smog inspections. And I would be very surprised if anyone has gotten an exemption for a Spitfire propane conversion.

Not sure about the status of diesels offhand. Old diesel cars are OK, but a new diesel conversion might not be. I know they outlawed VW diesels for awhile, because of new emission standards that they did not meet (or at least had not been certified to meet); and diesel cars made in the past decade or so are subject to smog inspection.

 

[Gafirema]

Okay, so basically I just need to tack on what was on my car originally. This will include a catalytic converter, yes? Or no? Aside from that, what I will need is basically all the parts Scott listed? Or less than that? Once I get the proper parts on and replace the head gasket (which I have the part for) I should be okay to pass smog, right? Then I'll be home free and have a registrable, drivable car?

 

[Deleted member 8987]

" I should be okay to pass smog, right?"

No, not unless you luck out.
What it WILL do is pass a visual, which is the first step.
ANYTHING Scott has to offer, take it.
Even the one or two bits still on your car may be damaged or inop.
You will need a cat, and a new head pipe from cat to tailpipe.
Does his list compare to the lists posted here?
Once it's all on, running, valves adjusted, timing set, new plugs, cap/rotor/wires checked, points and condensor replaced, THEN you warm it up, go for the suggested pre-test and see how close you are.
Hopefuly they can dial it in for you.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Hey, Randall.....California loosen up specs on older cars?
Or do they still make to meet the original standards? Or do they make you meet current standards?
Just asking.

 

[TR3driver]

Well, I'm more optimistic than Dave. If the cat lights (gets hotter than the exhaust), and the EGR valve passes gas when it should, and the air injection is working; there is a pretty good chance you'll pass the sniffer, IMO. Might have to tweak the mixture a bit, but if you've done everything else right, that should be all it takes. Oh yeah, the vacuum retard needs to be working too, as they check the timing.

Back when I brought my TR3A to CA, all cars had to be smogged at least once to be registered. I had heard all sorts of horror stories about CA smog tests, so I set the carbs way lean, retarded the timing and so on. Net result, it was too clean! They literally rejected it because it had too much O2 in the exhaust.

Went home, tuned it by the book, went back the next day and passed with flying colors.

 

[tdskip]

This will include a catalytic converter, yes? Or no?

SpitBits lists the following - "EXHAUST MANIFOLD 1500, with catalytic converter" - so that plus all the other coaching from the guys is a pretty convincing yes. Not just any catalytic converter, but the right one. Connected properly, with everything else working properly.

Do you have a correct manual for the car?

Please build in an expectation that you'll be doing tweaking and likely need to bring her to a specialist. If it isn't needed then great, but important to have realistic expectations.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Randall.....I used to do this as part of my trade.
BIG difference on a non-smog vehicle tweaking it to pass the "loose" specs, and trying to get a Brit Smoger to go through.
If the Brits could not meet CA standards in 1980, what has changed?
Up here, there were year breaks and BIG differences in what levels were required to pass.

I remember once, a testing station had an open house for emissions specialists, and they would show you how it was done on your car.
I took my 1950 Ford with flathead V-8.
They fell all over themselves laughing.
Stuck the probe in, and suddenly it got real, real quiet.

I still have that "pass" printout in the glovebox.

But, I did so many Brit and Italian cars, tried all sorts of gyrations to get them to pass.
Which is why I said earlier, IF you have documentation that the vehicle was accepted by the EPA for importation with higher readings than allowed, have it with you.

Cam profile, combustion chamber, sometimes it matters naught if the EGR works and the cat lights.

 

[TR3driver]

I'm certainly not a professional; but I did drive a 1980 Federal spec car in California and have to pass smog test every 2 years until it finally gave out in 2005 with some 250,000 miles on it. It did flunk a few times, and I fixed it every time (except once when the tech insisted on testing in 3rd gear so the EGR wouldn't open; that time I found a different shop instead). Let's see, once it was a sunken float (which filled the carbon canister with liquid fuel), couple of times the EGR valve was clogged, once it was just the filter in the canister was clogged.

There is a huge difference between passing the original EPA/CARB tests, and passing a "smog check". The standards in 1980 suddenly started including things like how much emissions while the engine was cold, maximum warm up times, complete "driving cycle" emissions and the real killer: minimum lifetime for the entire emissions system. The big 3 had just as much trouble meeting the new standards as the Brits did; in fact the reason I drove a Federal spec Chevy was because it didn't meet CA standards without the automatic and I wanted a manual. And even as a Federal model, it had things like a warning indicator for when the emissions had to be serviced (including changing the catalyst), that could only be reset by a technician (who was supposed to sign that all the work had been done by the book). Checking that flag was part of the visual inspection, they wouldn't even go on if it was up.

But you're right, I've been quietly assuming that the inside of the engine is stock. If it has been internally hot-rodded, then all bets are off. Doesn't seem likely though, since it's clearly still got the smog head on it, and the retard-only dizzy.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

He is taking the head off for a gasket.....but if the valves are leaking, and the guides worn, no amount of tweaking will help that.
WA State was and is far looser than CA, and we couldn't hardly get Brit cars to pass.
Most of the owners moved the cars out of the testing area, when they still could.
Then the 25-year rule took effect, and heck, an 86 drops off the charts this year.


Distributor shaft bushing worn....lobes worn....breaker plate loose.....retard diaphram leaking...timing chain sloppy....all of it adds up.

 

[TR3driver]

Hey, Randall.....California loosen up specs on older cars?
Or do they still make to meet the original standards? Or do they make you meet current standards?
Just asking.

The "smog test" standards are always much looser (like 10 times higher) than the original specifications, but are based on the original specifications. Older cars are expected to pass the same "smog test" standards that they would have when they were new, but those are much higher levels than new cars are expected to pass.

At one time there was actually a proposal on the table that the exhaust had to be cleaner than the intake, but they eventually backed down from that position, a little. :laugh: