1275 oil pan removal

[sgg]

Hi I am new to the forum, I have a problem with a 1275 1973 midget I aquired, it has continuos blue smoke coming from exhaust when warm, I have checked the usual breasthercase pipe and proceeded to take the head off and investigate but it looks a good engine rebuild but the gasket was blowing between 2 and 3 cylinders , I suspect it is a ring issue maybe stuck or broke, maybe he didnt bed it in properly and retighten, anyways my first question is I have taken all sump bolts out but she wont budge as I want to remove the pistons for inspection, have I missed something else or does it just need a good pry, maybe the timing cover bolts need slacking , hope not, this is my first midget, my other 2 are jags which I am much more familiar with, there is a story behind this one as there usually is with it being overfilled with oil as the oil filler tube had been incorrect;y installed, prior to this overfilling there was no issue with the engine smoking, at first I thought it would just burn off as oil was going into the exhaust which leads me to believe it is rings.

Thanks in advance for any help with this one.

 

[DrEntropy]

Pan is likely just well sealed/glued on. More concerning is the blow-by at cylinders 2 & 3. Is the head surface true? Sounds like a bodged rebuild, unfortunately the best thing would be to do a total tear-down.

there is a story behind this one as there usually is with it being overfilled with oil as the oil filler tube had been incorrect;y installed,

No telling what else may have been done without attention to good workman-like practices.

 

[DrEntropy]

And welcome to the Forum! Let us know what you find.

 

[sgg]

Thanks for that, it does look straight the head I have used a good straight edge to check, I am hoping for ring issues which I know can happen if it wasnt bedded in properly or stood for a long while without bedding in which it was. Ill be be a bit more adventurous with the pry bars.

 

[Mickey Richaud]

As a bit of an aside, be sure to post your Midget-specific questions over on the "Spridget" (Sprite/Midget) side. There are tons of folks there with particular experience with your car model.

And welcome indeed!

 

[JPSmit]

I know more about my 1500 but, I am pretty sure this could also be a PCV issue.

If you don't mind let me move this to the Spridget forum and see what they say.

 

[RickF]

There is a brass plug in the head right between cylinders 2 & 3 which recedes into the head and allows the gasket to fail between those two cylinders. Check to be sure the plug is flush with the head surface. If it has receded even a few thousandths of an inch it can cause this problem.

Also, if the engine was overfilled with oil it may smoke for some time until all of the excess oil is burned out of the muffler and tail pipe. You have already torn the engine down, but this may be the cause of the oil smoke.

Rick

 

[sgg]

I know more about my 1500 but, I am pretty sure this could also be a PCV issue.

If you don't mind let me move this to the Spridget forum and see what they say.

Ok no worries sorry I didn't see that listing originally

 

[sgg]

There is a brass plug in the head right between cylinders 2 & 3 which recedes into the head and allows the gasket to fail between those two cylinders. Check to be sure the plug is flush with the head surface. If it has receded even a few thousandths of an inch it can cause this problem.

Also, if the engine was overfilled with oil it may smoke for some time until all of the excess oil is burned out of the muffler and tail pipe. You have already torn the engine down, but this may be the cause of the oil smoke.

Rick

I will check that again, they did seem flush, when she gets to temp she starts to choke out on tick over , that's why I suspected the rings. I put a new head gasket on as they are reasonably priced and tightened her all up and ran her for 30 mins same problem, took the head back off and it is all fine , there is oil coming from joint off manifold as I left this dry jointed where it connected to down pipe that is why I suspected rings but might be wrong, I just thought if I could get the pistons out and inspect the rings I will have all the evidence in front of me which I will do tonight, if it not that I will look to have the head checked I guess and I will post images that might help diagnosis.

 

[sgg]

Latest update that is concerning, released the sump and removed 3 of the four pistons, all seem in perfect condition including the head, I have attached photos to see if enyione can throw light on this, I have not checked the pressure release valve and that is the last thing to do, everything else seems ok. not sure what I am missing or just old age is creeping in haha.

 

[Boink]

it looks a good engine rebuild but the gasket was blowing between 2 and 3 cylinders

Just looked at your head shot and it looks OK.
As an aside, and per Rick's post above, I was going to post this below (though probably not an issue for you)... but I had similar symptoms with my Bugeye (with a 1275). After much frustration (sputtering and smoke), I pulled the head... and, by-golly, there was the problem. A blanking plug in the head had recessed just a bit (maybe less than a millimeter) and that brass plug crosses the head-gasket fire-rings of cylinders 2 and 3. The moment the engine became even a little bit warm, the leaking between cylinders began. So, I took the opportunity to re-build the head and all was resolved.
Photo #1 - freshly pulled head
Photo #2 - gasket removed and depth of problem revealed
Photo #3 - a before and after-machining shot (with all blanking plugs circled, though only one was replaced).

Lastly, I temporarily had some serious smoke when I tried a PCV unit on the car, with a bit too much suction to the crankcase... and finally bailed on that unit.

 

[sgg]

Just looked at your head shot and it looks OK.
As an aside, I was going to post this (though probably not an issue for you)... but I had similar symptoms with my Bugeye (with a 1275). After much frustration (sputtering and smoke), I pulled the head... and, by-golly, there was the problem. A blanking plug in the head had recessed just a bit (maybe less than a millimeter) and that brass plug crosses the fire-rings of cylinders 2 and 3. The moment the engine became even a little bit warm, the leaking between cylinders began. So, I took the opportunity to re-build the head and all was resolved.
Photo #1 - freshly pulled head
Photo #2 - gasket removed and depth of problem revealed
Photo #3 - a before and after-machining shot (with all blanking plugs circled, though only one was replaced).

Thanks for that, what is peculiar is the head gasket was exactly shot like yours in the exact same place, I have attached the photos, but when I inspected the head as you can see it is a really straight head, it is a newly reconditioned engine and I cannot find fault, I thought maybe it had been bedded in and not retightened but I checkedthe torque and they were ok, so really running out of solutions here, I only have left the pressure release valve or help is always available at hogwarts, haha

haha

 

[Boink]

Hmmm... not sure. Perplexing why the gasket is black between 2 and 3 (and has a bit of a worn look where it is silver). There is an odd marring (?) on the head at that blanking plug too (which also shows on the gasket). Given that the head is supposedly OK in that location, is the block itself OK in that same spot? BTW, I presume that if the entire engine was renewed that the head was crack-tested before/during all that.
Given that wear look on the gasket and head at the site of the blanking plug, I'm still suspicious of that problem. I believe the Rick (above) reports that even a recession of a few thousands of a inch will create a difficulty (though mine was much more).

 

[sgg]

Just to track what had happened, I purchased the car and did a body restoration as most of the mechanics were complete including a new engine and gearbox, all new mechanical parts, started the engine when I first got it using a can and no issues, about a year later when completed the car restoration and ready for final fire up, I noticed the oil level was low so topeed her up and thought at the time it was a lot to bring her to correct level (about a litre) when I fired her back up after a few ignition problems and opting for new elctronic version she was smoking like mad, removed rocker cover to see oil spewing into chamber, so drained oil and refilled her using the capacity reccomended, found out that the dipstick tube was incorrectly installed and not hammered home, assuming it was just oil entry into exhaust ran her for a good hour thinking she might burn the oil off but to no avail, so stripped her and found the head gasket blowing between 2 and 3 yet no signs what so ever off the head or block being at fault and no problem prior to being overfilled so opted to check pistons and all ok, It could be a minor crack but I am assuming that overfilling would not cause that, thats why I was wondering about the relief valve which is meant to be relieving the pressure when cold??? I even did a compression tst and that was fine too. Rememeber I have fitted a new gasket and that has not blown as I inspected the head again so it seems like pressure build up maybe.

 

[Boink]

Whew... perplexing. Bold to pull the pistons so soon. Also, good that you ran it for awhile to be sure that there wasn't oil in the exhaust to be burned off. Compression fine. Hmmm. Presuming that valves are properly opening/closing (nothing sticking and I would presume that checking compression would confirm that too), I'm at a bit of a loss. Still... why does that spot look odd.

 

[sgg]

Whew... perplexing. Bold to pull the pistons so soon. Also, good that you ran it for awhile to be sure that there wasn't oil in the exhaust to be burned off. Compression fine. Hmmm. Presuming that valves are properly opening/closing (nothing sticking and I would presume that checking compression would confirm that too), I'm at a bit of a loss. Still... why does that spot look odd.

Well it seems such a small engine compared to the jags I work on so just wanted to be confident of what I had in front of me as I didn't do the recon, yet it seems a good job , if you look at the head plugs yiu mentioned they are absolutely spot on , I just thought he might not of tightened it down in the correct sequence which caused the initial blown gasket, I would of continued trying to burn the oil off but it was choking up when hot. I hope someone can throw light on this.

 

[RickF]

My recommendation would be to use a black Payen composite head gasket. The two that I have had good luck with are the BK450 and the AF470. APT in California has them in stock I believe.

https://aptfast.com/item/5461040-1275-a-series-head-gasket-comp-payen?category=145876

 

[Boink]

My recommendation would be to use a black Payen composite head gasket. The two that I have had good luck with are the BK450 and the AF470. APT in California has them in stock I believe.

https://aptfast.com/item/5461040-1275-a-series-head-gasket-comp-payen?category=145876

That's what I used as well.

 

[SaxMan]

I'm another "victim" of the blanking plug taking out the head gasket and causing a huge compression loss in the #2 & #3 cylinders. I had my head pulled and rebuilt. If you search this forum, there are posts about the fix to the blanking plug issue. IIRC, it is fixed by putting in a threaded brass bolt and then having a machine shop grind the bolt until it is flush with the head surface. I've put about 12,000 miles on the car since that repair, and no problems at all.

 

[Boink]

I'm another "victim" of the blanking plug taking out the head gasket and causing a huge compression loss in the #2 & #3 cylinders. I had my head pulled and rebuilt. If you search this forum, there are posts about the fix to the blanking plug issue. IIRC, it is fixed by putting in a threaded brass bolt and then having a machine shop grind the bolt until it is flush with the head surface. I've put about 12,000 miles on the car since that repair, and no problems at all.

The shop that re-built my head (new valves, guides, flattening/smoothing, grinding, etc.) used a threaded blanking plug. Like you, never had a problem since.