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Second gear grinding

kruppelt

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I have a question:

When my TR6 is cold and when I shift into 2nd it's difficult to get into gear and the gears grind. After the car warms up it shifts just fine. All other gears work well.

Do I have a clutch that is not engaging when cold or a transmission problem?

Thanks for the help.
 
G

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Kevin,
Depending on how many miles you have on the tranny, I wouldn't worry about it. My tranny is fairly new and it don't like to shift well until it is nice and warmed up. A well used transmission that grinds in second may have a syncro starting to talk to you. Have you changed the oil in the transmission at all? I run straight 30 wt non-detergent Valvoline motor oil in my transmission/overdrive.

Bill
 

Musicman

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Bill,

Okay, here's a stupid question. You say you use motor oil in your transmission. Wouldn't transmission fluid be used for the transmission?

Am I missing something here?
 

Bob_Muzio

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David, if one has an overdrive then the advised fluid is motor oil. I run 20/50 Valvoline Racing Oil as I've been told by a TR guru that it has low detergent qualities. If you don't have an O/D tranny then trans gear lube would be the answer. If you're into synthetics I've found that the Redline product is excellent.
Bob Muzio
 

Musicman

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Bob,

Thanks for the explanation. It's always great to learn new things about our LBC's.
 

RomanH

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David,
There have been many discussions about what to use for lubricating the trans on this forun. I would suggest doing a search of the old threads for more info.
A straight 30 weight nondetergent oil is appropriate to use in the MT. It seems that the new GL-5 gear oils contain an addative which will deteriorate the bronze components (syncro rings) in our transmissions.
FWIW my first two cars (Japanese from the mid sventies) both listed in thier service manuals 30 weight motor oil as the proper lubricant to use.

Roman
 
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kruppelt

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Bill,

I just changed the transmission oil about 1 month ago. I used gear oil Coastal SAE 80W90. It does not have overdrive and I believe the tranmission was rebuilt a few years back.
 

Mickey Richaud

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[ QUOTE ]
Bill,

I just changed the transmission oil about 1 month ago. I used gear oil Coastal SAE 80W90. It does not have overdrive and I believe the tranmission was rebuilt a few years back.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would explain why it gets better after it's warmed up. 80W90 is too thick - better to go with either 30W or 20W50.

Mickey
 

vettedog72

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I agree with Mickey, you are using a lub way too think for the transmission. Did the person that rebuilt the transmission recommend the heavy weight you are using?

Until you get it changed out, the little grinds you hear are certainly not good for the tranny so go easy until it is warmed up.
 

LastDeadLast

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Kevin,

I had the EXACT same problem that you had. I replace the oil with Redline MTL and now 2nd gear works great. I was amazed at the difference. I know that sounds like a commercial, but the stuff really worked that well.
 
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kruppelt

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[ QUOTE ]
Did the person that rebuilt the transmission recommend the heavy weight you are using?

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy at the Auto Parts store recommended it and the manual recommended 90 oil.

A big thanks to you guys... I'm going to change out the oil ASAP. I'm sure that's it because the ginding did not occur until after I changed the oil.

Thanks again... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 

vettedog72

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Sorry, I am wrong, I have not looked at the owners manual in a while and if it specs 80-90 you should be ok at 80-90 and I would not recommend a 30 weight motor oil. The thin engine oil may not give you the lub you need in the transmission. I would go with the book unless you are having extream weather conditions (cold). I think you will wear all the moving parts at a faster rate if you use a thin 30w motor oil, especially in a hot summer. Some modern day manual transmissions even use ATF but then they are designed to use the thin ATF but the TR6 is not.
 

Alan_Myers

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Hi,

I would recommend you check several things related to your clutch, just to eliminate concerns and possibly head off any problems that might be starting to develop. Clutch problems can cause the symptoms you have noted and are all too common on TR6. There are a variety of fixes that I won't try to detail here, but especially check that there is no slop in the clutch linkage (wear in the fork or clevis pin, free movement in the actuating lever that might indicate a snapped off taper pin inside the bellhousing) and that the slave cylinder is moving the pushrod a full 5/8" stroke. Also check that the clevis pin is fitted to the middle hole in the lever, *not* the top or bottom. All TRs use the middle hole... using the other holes can either over-extend or under-disengage the clutch.

Check for end play in crankshaft (thrust washer wear) with a dial micrometer on the front pulley/hub. On the 6-cylinder engines, this is another common thing that can effect the clutch and gearbox.

With these other things eliminated as possibilities, I generally agree with the previous responses:

No, transmission fluids are far too light for TR gearboxes.

Regarding non-OD gearboxes:

Original spec was 90w GL4 gear oil (never use *any* GL5, which contains sulpher compounds and will eventually damage brass parts in the g'box, such as the synchro rings). This is also specified for the differential.

80w90 or 85w95 is more common today and might be what you have to use. However, it may be too heavy when cold and can give symptoms like you describe.

20w50 *racing* motor oil can be used instead and is just slightly lighter than 85w95 gear oil.

Racing oil is non-detergent, which is what you want. Don't use any standard types of engine oil that contain detergent and especially no "high mileage" oils that contain lots and lots of detergent additives. The gearbox doesn't have combustion gases in it, like the engine does, so doesn't need any detergents. In fact, detergents can do harm to the gearbox by foaming and reducing effective lubrication.

If freshly rebuilt or just if it still seems a bit too heavy, especially in colder weather, don't be afraid to try straight 40w *racing* motor oil. Some go as light as 30w.

Regarding an OD/gearbox with non-synthetic oil:

Everything the same, except in a freshly rebuilt OD 30w racing motor oil is probably best (recommended by John Esposito at Quantum Mechanics, who has rebuilt many TR gearboxes and overdrives). 40w racing motor oil might be used, in part or mixed with 30w, if the gearbox has some miles on it.

Original specification even for OD gearboxes was 90w gear oil. In really hot weather, with high mileage on the OD, or in hard driving conditions, heavy gear oil or 20w50 might be used. But some have reported ODs locking up when hot, if heavier oils like these are used. Tests done by John Esposito showed internal OD pressures getting way too high with heavier oils. AFAIK, all his testing was done on fresh ODs, so I don't rule out using 40w and even 20w50 in an OD with some time and miles on it.

Regarding synthetic oils in a TR gearbox:

A number of TR owners have reported problems with gearboxes popping out of gear, after switching to various synthetic oils. I haven't tried them, but have heard certain Redline gear oils are an exception and might work fine, because they are specifically formulated to not be as "slippery" as many other synthetics. There may be other usable synthetics out there, but I'm not aware of any brand names. If you choose to use synthetic gear oil and the gearbox starts popping out of gear, most likely no harm will be done and the problem is usually solved by simply switching back to non-synthetic oil.

Regarding synthetic oil in an OD gearbox:

I would be a little concerned about using any synthetic in an OD gearbox. The reason is I accidentally ruined an oil-bathed clutch in a motorcycle when I mistakenly poured in a quart of synthetic oil. Immediately the clutch started slipping and had to be replaced.

Guess, what? The TR OD units have an oil-bathed clutch in them! It might or might not be a problem. I don't know for certain one way or the other. I just don't see any reason to take a chance. ODs are costly to have rebuilt!

Hope this helps.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 

Bob_Muzio

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Did we ever decide if we're advising re: an O/D trans or non O/D?
Anyway, Alan, lots of good input. I do know a fellow who is very experienced with the O/D trans and he adds very small amount of ATF to the 20/50 motor oil. Additionally it's interesting to note that the TR repair manual advises 90W gear lube yet other British cars of the same vintage with the Laycock de Normanville O/D advise 30W motor oil.
Go figure!
Shannon, I've no experience with the Redline MTL in the TR trans but it worked wonders for the Moss box in my Series I E-type; it took a horrible tranny and made it merely poor. For those of you with a Mog or older Jaguar with the Moss box it's worth a try. It make the trans tolerable.
Bob Muzio
 

TRTEL

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Kevin, If I had a buck for every TR2-4 box that was brought into the shop for an overhaul for that reason I could go out and bring in the New Year at McDonald's. And usually for the previously stated reason, using a too viscous oil for the prevailing temperatures. And of course the more worn or flattened the synchro cone clutch 'teeth' are the worse the problem. If a test run with a lighter grade oil doesn't reduce the grinding significantly then you probably will start seeing problems with third gear sooner than later. The synchros are a bit on the weak side when compared with those in other gearboxes making 2nd gear particularly vulnerable to a shortened life if you like to autocross or otherwise drive briskly. Good luck and let us know if the oil change helps.
Tom Lains
 
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kruppelt

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Thanks Guys for the great input and throrough discussions. My TR6 does not have OD. I will also check out the clutchas Alan mentions.
I ordered the Redline MTL oil today and will give it a shot. I had to order on-line as it appears it's not broadly distributed in our area.
 
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kruppelt

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Thanks guys for the help and guidance. My TR6 does not have OD.
I just ordered the Redline MTL online as there does not appear to be local dealer in my area. We'll give that a shot and see if that works. I'll also check out the clutch per Alan's advise.
 
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