More Battery/Starter/Solenoid Woes

[KVH]

Hey guys! I was just thinking of the Good Old Days,

<span style="font-size: 20pt">LIKE WHEN I COULD DRIVE MY TRIUMPH </span>

As some of you helpful good folks know, my symptoms and clues in my saga to start my car, which ran great just last weekend, are:

a) nothing but a single click when turning the ignition key;

b) some smoke from the wires at the solenoid, but darn if I know which ones--it was unclear, and the smoke was slight;

c) the negative battery terminal was warm;

d) after cleaning the cables, confirming my battery is good with a load tester, and confidently trying the ignition again, the negative ground wire blew clean off the firewall--it appeared I had a loose or bad connection;

e) I installed a new ground and battery cable at the firewall, cleaned the cables yet again, and turned the ignition, and now I'm where I was Sunday afternoon--nothing but a click at the starter and a hint of something smokey.

Usually, I rule out a bad starter. This one was reconditioned 4 years ago. Maybe a brush? Time to pull the starter after all?

If this goes on much longer I'll be driving my old Buick this weekend.

Any final thoughts before I pull the starter (I guess I could jump the solenoid posts with a screwdrive)?

 

[Norton47]

Sounds like something is or was shorting. I think you have a soleniod issue.
Will the screwdriver trick work. That would tell you the starter is ok if it turns over fine and starts.

The solenoid is a heavy duty electrically actuated switch, the click is it actuating most likely, but do the contacts in the solenoid really conduct electricity? The starter won't turn it they don't.
If the screwdriver across the terminal won't turn the starter over then the starter is bad. Assuming there is voltage at the end of the battery cable.
Did you also do the solenoid connections? They should be taken apart an cleaned and made sure to be tight. Make sure any crimped on or soldered on terminals are tight. I have seen where solder has melted out of the connection, leaving it a high resistance.

 

[TR3driver]

Sure sounds like a duff starter to me. I assume you've checked carefully around where the cable attaches to the starter, that the fiber washer hasn't gone AWOL or the terminal bent until it touches the case. After that (and everything else you've been through), I'd probably pull the starter next.

IMO trying to jump the solenoid posts will both be inconclusive, and likely to damage the posts.

One test you might try, though, is to check battery voltage while trying to crank the engine. Since the battery has been load tested (and charged), if the voltage drops sharply then you know there is a heavy load on it (ie short to ground). But I think the hot cables, etc. have already demonstrated that.

I assume you've checked the engine ground strap at the LF motor mount.

 

[TR3driver]

One other thought, they used to sell an ammeter that you could just hold up to a starter cable to measure current. I don't know if such things are still readily available or not, but it would instantly answer the question of whether the current is too low (indicating a bad connection somewhere, possibly inside the solenoid) or too high (shorted starter).
https://www.stuttgartperformanceengineering.com/inductiveammater.html

 

[jdubois]

Hey guys! I was just thinking of the Good Old Days,

<span style="font-size: 20pt">LIKE WHEN I COULD DRIVE MY TRIUMPH </span>

I feel your pain, my friend. I'm in the exact same situation as you at the moment with my starter, though my battery cables got so hot they melted all their insulation off!

 

[vivdownunder]

On the TR's I've had, first thing I do is run a heavy duty earth cable from the battery down to the top mount bolt of the starter motor. This avoids resistance on the earth side, due to the starting current having to find its way back to the battery via the firewall.

The improvement in starter motor efficiency is usually quite noticeable.

Consider renewing the solenoid every five years or so, as the contacts tend to carbon up like distributor points, causing voltage drop to the starter motor.

Regards,

Viv

 

[KVH]

I don't think the shop manual or Moss show that fiber washer on the starter, and I don't think I have one? I'm going out to check.

 

[Geo Hahn]

I had my TR4 starter fail last Fall. Possibly symptoms similar to yours but I assumed pretty quick that it was the starter and thus missed all the exciting bits.

In my case it was that the field coil winding had chafed to the point where the conductors were making contact with the case. It doesn't like that (i.e. a dead short).

I rewrapped the field coils and all was well.

You said the starter was reconditioned 4 years ago but perhaps they just did the brushes & bearings and did not closely inspect the field coils. Mine were worn in several areas so even a field coil that tests okay with a multimeter can still be headed for trouble.

Let me know if you need any on-site moral support.

<span style="font-style: italic">What the field coils looked like (ugly):</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">Me after doing the winding (more ugly):</span>

 

[Sarastro]

Do you have a voltmeter, or at least a test lamp? If so, connect the connections between the two high-current terminals of the solenoid, i.e., the two with the heavy wire attached. You should see 12V (or test lamp on) when you are not starting the car, and when you try to start it, you should see 0V (or the lamp goes dark). If you continue to see 12V, or the lamp stays on, when you try to start the car, and hear the solenoid click, the contacts are toast and you need a new solenoid (very likely!). Virtually any 12V solenoid will work; you don't need to pay through the nose for one from the Usual Suspects.

If you see no voltage when you're not trying to start the car, something is open-circuited. It's likely that the starter is bad.

If the above test works out, but it still won't start, my best guess is either a bad starter or some bad connection. To check a connections, measure the voltage between the terminal on the wire and the terminal it bolts to. Try to start the car and see if there is any voltage across it. If you see a voltage, it's not conducting properly and you should clean the connection. You can check any connection this way--between the wire connector and the wire, too.

Just check things methodically, and I'm sure you'll track it down. Also, spend a few bucks for a cheap analog multimeter--it's essential for tracking down electrical problems.

 

[tdskip]

Pulling the starter isn't that bad of a job. Is there a known good one handy? Might be a good time to start thinking about gear reduction starter if you've ever wanted one...

 

[KVH]

Because of all the great help here, I owe it to the forum to "fess up." At least for now.

I pulled the starter and bench tested it. It worked strong.

So, to summarize the events here: Last weekend I experienced a click and no ability to start my car. I cleaned by battery cables at the battery, with no change in results. I then witnessed smoke near the solenoid, and a very warm negative battery post. My next effort to start the car was met by heavy sparking at the negative battery cable where it bolts to the firewall and disintegration of my negative battery cable at that point. Quite a spark and pop exhibition.

In the process, I'd cleaned all wires at all points, and even replaced my solenoid for fear it was sticking. The only wire (or cable) I didn't more fully explore was the one from the solenoid to the starter, but I'd wiped it clean with a rag, and it appeared to be well in contact, tight and intact. I even put a wrench on it to be sure it wasn't loose.

Well, I after bench testing the starter I took that lone cable at the starter and cleaned it with solvent and then buffed the connector ends lightly with a wire brush on my dremmel tool.

The car started right up.

I'm not sure what to say. This may be another case of big problems caused by simple issues, and overreacting by suspecting bigger issues.

In any event, I wanted to bring it full circle and I'll report more if I get stuck at my mother-in-law's house.

thx

 

[martx-5]

What to say?? You fixed it. That cable had to be shorting to ground somehow. By taking it off, cleaning and then putting back on...probably in a slightly different position, you cured the problem. Go for a drive...

 

[TR3driver]

Hey, just glad you got it fixed! It works like that, sometimes, no obvious problem, it just wanted some 'lovin'.

Don't forget, these cars are fairly easy to start by pushing, and I've never had much trouble recruiting random strangers to help push.

 

[rggav]

I found a bad fiber washer on my MGB starter connection and replaced it plus replaced the solenoid. I tried to start it with the ignition key and I got the click again. I then went to my new solenoid and pushed the starter buttonon it and the engine turned over........go figure. It has been working ever since. I don't know why it didn't work with the key the first time???????????

 

[tdskip]

Good hear! Feeling the TR4a love again?