Fender[wing]sealant questions

[Norton47]

While looking at my rear brakes and waiting for my new drums, I was cleaning up some and getting ready to check the fluid in the shocks, when I looked up and saw the light or rather sunlight coming through the fender to body join. This car has been repainted, and the paint has cracked along the exterior joint. The inner fender well has been undercoated at some time also. Most of the fastners are covered with a couple showing where the undercoat has come away. The car was detailed prior to it's sale and they did a nice job of pressure washing the underside.
The question is,should I respray undercoating to cover the fastners and along the join area, thus sealing this from inside the fender well or ? My concern is that water(Pacific Northwest)will get in the join area from the top and cause rust. Should I use some kind of sealant on the exterior?
I am using this as a regular driver that is/will be returned to very nice condition. The car is relatively rust free although there is some in the rear deck where it joins the body tub. Same place as a previous string was discussed. I treated that with phosphoric acid stuff and spray painted it for now. I want to minumize further rusting until I pull the fenders off and treat it all properly. At least a year away.
Opinions! Thanks

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi,

You would be very wise to do some sealing up from below to keep water out of those joints. They really should be sealed from the top down, too, since rain and carwashes will also cause plenty of moisture to get in there.

I believe the factory installed a strip of non-hardening sealer or something similar in there originally, perhaps caulk-type seam sealer such as a body repair supply sells. Perhaps the fender(s) have been off your car some time? You shouldn't see daylight up through there.

I can tell you those edges do tend to rust. They are a water and dirt trap, and didn't get very well painted originally. Fenders aren't particularly hard to remove, paint the insides to protect better than was ever done by the factory, and re-install.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Guest]

A good way to temporarily seal these fenders is to first make sure that everything underneath is clean. Sounds like this is already done. Next, from the top, apply a bead of silicon sealant down into the crack. I would do this by either finding some silicon with a tip applicator or backloading some into a disposable plastic syringe and getting it into the crack. You can run the silicon all the way down the seam from front to back. Press the silicon into the crack with a spit-wetted fingertip (gross sounding but works) You just want to seal from the to, not fill the crack up with the stuff (meaning, you do want to fill the crack, not pump a huge gob of the stuff down into you fender). The silicon will harden overnight and be impervious to water, waxing, etc. I would use black
colored silicon so that it would look like it belongs there. I sealed the fenders (wings) on the rear of my car with black silicon. The seams were painted over and because of normal body flex, all the paint seams cracked. The silicon, now concave down into all the seams, stays in place and does not allow water in.

Now, from the bottom. You might want to remove your wheel and cover your hub. Buy yourself a container of Waxoyl (Moss), heat it till it becomes liquid (I put mine in a large pot of water and boil the water -- I do this outside).
I have a pressure sprayer that is made to spray the heated Waxoyl into crevices. Apply this heated product underneath the whole of the fender. You can use a paint brush to do this, just work the hot, liquidy product up into all the little nooks and crannys.

Especially if you are planning on pulling the wings later on, this technique will assure you of sealing from water and all is removeable with relative ease.

Bill

 

[Norton47]

Bill
Will an old garden/weed sprayer work for spraying waxoyl?

 

[Don Elliott]

I make my own Waxoyl from the recipe : -

https://www.geocities.com/wallaces_21/waxoyl.html

I used a garden sprayer on the last TR3A that we did. But we only sprayed it into the inside of the frame and cross members and into all closed sections in the body. With all the fenders etc., painted off the car, there is good paint protection in all the joints you are concerned about. I never put or use any "Dum-dum" in any of the fender joints.

In 16 years and 94,000 miles, I've driven about 4,000 miles in the wet plus about 5 or 6 high pressure car washes per year and there is still no sign of any rusting or paint bubbling along any of the fender joints.

https://www.britishcarforum.com/ubbthreads/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/1919/ppuser/4127

 

[Norton47]

Thanks Don
I just got to wonder does not the TR3A have a welting that goes between the wings and body structure. It appeares to be a bead and IMO would help shed water, so along with proper painting these areas would have enhanced protection compared to from factory. However the TR6 has an open valley between the wing and body structure. I would agree that if properly painted when taken apart a better moisture barrier is provided. However(2)as it is a mechanical joint and subject to vibration and corresponding stress to the the metal surrounding the fastners, possibly stressing the flexibility of the paint. Thus a sealant between the faying surfaces would protect this area even more. (if properly applied). Some of this feeling is caused by marine and aircraft experience, I am sure.
Just a ramble.
Is there a concurs restoration group, business or other that has set a standard?
It is obvious that overall corrosion resistance was not part of the British engineering standard at the factory. Every extra step also increases production cost. I feel that the more you can do to improve things without changing the look of the car, the better.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

[ QUOTE ]
The car is relatively rust free although there is some in the rear deck where it joins the body tub. Same place as a previous string was discussed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you have rust here, and can see through the fender and tub joint indicates to me there is possibly more damage there then you realize. While sealing the top, and where you can reach from the underside will do some to retard the rust problem, the rusting process will proceed.

I agree with Alan, that the best thing to do is remove the fender and clean things up. If you are not ready to do all the metal repairs now, at least remove the loose rust and convert the remaining, then coat with Zero Rust or a similar product (not POR15 or other encapsulaters as they are difficult to remove later). Contrary to a previous post, you must use a joint sealer on the rear fender of a TR6 unless you like water inside your car. So when you then attach the wing be sure to use a non-hardening, Dum-Dum like joint sealer to facilitate removal later.

Fender removal will require removing the rear bumper, taillight, trunk interior, top, and rear cockpit interior. Simple stuff, but lots to do.

Whether you do the quick top and bottom sealing or fender removal, something has to be done, or the problem will just get worse.

The following link is to images of my rear fender area, including partial repair to the fender lip where the rust was so bad, new metal is needed, as well as the rear light area where new metal was also needed. You will also note that the original joint sealers had hardened and broke down allowing water to penetrate through the bolt holes to the interior of the car.

Rust under rear wing

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill
Will an old garden/weed sprayer work for spraying waxoyl?

[/ QUOTE ]

Kinda not really. A previous poster said he used it, I tried it and it clogged up too quickly. I went out and bought a pressure sprayer specific for this type of rustproofer (Eastwood) that is powered by my air compressor. Even then it is a pain to use. That is why I would recommend getting the stuff really hot and even thinning it a bit with kerosene. Then, with lots of good light and the car really clean, and up high on jack stands, you can brush it in to essentially every where you want it to go, save inside the frame of course.

A bit more on the seam sealer technique I used. That is , using black silicon to close the top of the rear fender seams. The fenders on these cars will creak and move, ever so slightly. I made very certain that the inside of every seam I sealed was spotless, rustfree and very, very dry before I sealed the tops of the seams. Then I went in with thinned Waxoyl and forced it into the underside of each seam. I know there is no air space left and no place for moisture to live, especially with the wax. The silicon flexes and moves with the fenders (we are talking microns)and has yet to pull away from the painted surface of my fenders. I actually redid an area some time back, got up to the seam and found zero problems. Resealed and done with it.


Bill

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi again,

Careful. Some common types of silicon-based sealers will eventually stain and/or remove automotive paint. That's why they aren't used by auto manufacuterers or body shops.

 

[Norton47]

What to do on Sunday afternoon? While everyone was typing, I washed the wheel well again and then thought, what the heck and removed the rear fender. The fender is ok, the inner fender has some rust through. The whole fender well had a very heavy coating of undercoat. Which for the most part protected. It also trapped water and caused some rust.
Question 1, TR6Oldtimer, how do you make that nice picture link. I have photos on yahoo. Similar rust through different spots.
Question 2, I want to braze in some new metal. What gauge and type is suggested. Used to use old fenders but am fresh out.
Question 3, has anyone made up a check list for steps in treating rust to kill it, then epoxy prime it, then paint.

 

[71tr]

RE: Question 3,
remove as much rust as possible by cutting, sanding, grinding etc. coat with a mild solution of phosphoric acid (naval jelly or in spray form from local hardware store) this will convert the remaining iron oxide to iron phosphate, prep and paint.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Question 1:
When replying to a post(not instant reply), you will be directed to a web page that has a box labeled Instant UBB Code. Within that box, is another box labeled URL. When you click on URL, a small window appears soliciting a web address. I usually copy the web address I want folks to view and paste it in or you can type it in, hit enter. A second box appears asking for a description. Type in your description and press enter. You will notice that the web address is now embedded in your message enclosed in HTML code. You can similarly use other text enhancements like bold, underline....

Make sure your Yahoo photo album or pictures have permissions set to allow public access.

Question 2:
I use 20 gauge sheet metal (18 on the fore deck but may go to 18 for all repairs for reasons mentioned in another thread). When I first started I got my material from a sheet metal fabricator. The only metal they had was harder then that used in auto repair work. I subsequently procured my metal from an auto dismantler. There are a few places I braze, everywhere else I use oxy-acetylene and size 0 welding tip which works well for me. A word of caution when brazing, be sure to remove all traces of the flux, or your paint will lift. Also before appling primer, rough the bronze surface with 80 grit paper.

Question 3:
The best way to remove rust is to media blast where possible. Where not, the process mentioned in a previous posts is the way to go for surface rust and pits. This technique is not to be used to treat rust in joints or overlaps because you cannot wipe the excess phosphates off.
Another member recommended this site which has help me a lot body work .

 

[MDCanaday]

BRAZE???great heavens I thought that the 60's were over!!If you cant mig weld it,use metal bonding adheasive so you dont warp it to flinders.
MD(mad dog)

 

[TR6oldtimer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you cant mig weld it,use metal bonding adheasive so you dont warp it to flinders.


[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone has different skill sets and tools available to them. Brazing, although not widely used these days, is a perfectly acceptable body repair technique, especially if you know how to do it and take care to remove the flux. In fact, brazing was incorporate in portions of the original assembly of TR's, and still has use in certain restoration applications. As to MIG welding, if that is you choice, fine, but if you are serious, and do a lot of body work, a TIG welder is preferable. Unlike the MIG, the TIG allows you to control the temperature and amount of weld laid down. It also allows the use of softer metal in the weld, facilitating dolly and hammer work. All things you cannot do with the MIG.

That said, I do not have enough work to do to justify a TIG setup. So I opted to go with gas welding, a skill I learned in high school, which requires considerable more attention to temperature then a TIG, but has all the other benefits. I have to admit that after 40+ years, it took some time to improve my skill level to where I am now comfortable butt welding patches in visible areas like the rear deck.

So whether it is MIG, TIG, gas, or brazing, it all comes down to the skills and technique your budget and comfort level can afford. But it is ridiculous to say use metal bonding adhesive if not MIG welding.

 

[Norton47]

Thanks for the hints on how to use the link, I got it figured out. These are some shots of the inner fender and the car itself. As the rear deck does not have much pitted rust area's nor any rust through, I am thinking about detaching it from the inner fender metal and then cutting out the inner fender damaged area and making a new piece and welding it in. As it has that little step to it, I thought I could form that by using the cut out piece for a gauge. As this seems to be only spot welded I thought I would duplicate that also, thus keeping the heat down no matter what method used. I also learned brazing in H.S. and followed that with more work in a body shop for a year.
The small holes forward by the B post I think I will grind out an put small patches as required or weld them shut.
Now for the overlap area going down on the B Post. This comment on not using the acid treatment in overlap area's because you cannot wipe them off. Is Eastwoods rust encapuslator what to use? I peeled up the B Post where it overlaps abit with a chisel back to the spot welds to see if it had rusted through, and it had not. Could this be treated with phosphate treament and flushed with water, to stop the rust?
What should I do on the rear deck to right side upper piece. The tabs that come down are almost gone. Grind that out and weld a patch across the join line?
Thanks TR6 Right rear fender rust /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Norton47]

opps you have to remove the extra http in the url
Sorry

 

[Alan_Myers]

[ QUOTE ]
...thus keeping the heat down no matter what method used. I also learned brazing in H.S. ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

Either brazing or gas welding will heat up the surrounding areas too much and damage a significant area of paint inside and out, if that's what you are concerned about. Properly done mig tack welding can minimize heat damage and might make for a more contained paint repair. If you don't have the equipment or skills to do mig, you might look for a local shop that can tack the piece in there, once you remove the rusted area and make up the patch panel.

If going to the extent to cut out the old metal and replace it, I'd use an epoxy type primer to seal the metal, then whatever standard paint, to match the car's finish, on top of that. No rust encapsulator would be needed if you have removed the rust (and I'm skeptical about how effective any encapsulator would be in the long run).

Also I haven't used Eastwood's encapsulator, but have used POR15 which I think is similar. If making a temporary repair with plans to come back and do more work in the area later, I'd avoid POR15. It's very difficult to remove, hardens more in the presence of moisture and over time. Perhaps the same would be true of E'wood's encapsulator.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

[ QUOTE ]
As the rear deck does not have much pitted rust area's nor any rust through, I am thinking about detaching it from the inner fender metal and then cutting out the inner fender damaged area and making a new piece and welding it in. As it has that little step to it, I thought I could form that by using the cut out piece for a gauge. As this seems to be only spot welded I thought I would duplicate that also, thus keeping the heat down no matter what method used.
The small holes forward by the B post I think I will grind out an put small patches as required or weld them shut.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've done the same thing, your plan will work. After cleaning and treating the metal before welding, I use a zinc weld through primer on the surfaces between the joints.

[ QUOTE ]

Now for the overlap area going down on the B Post. This comment on not using the acid treatment in overlap area's because you cannot wipe them off. Is Eastwood's rust encapuslator what to use?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eastwood or POR15 rust products are not formulated for this application.

[ QUOTE ]

I peeled up the B Post where it overlaps abit with a chisel back to the spot welds to see if it had rusted through, and it had not. Could this be treated with phosphate treament and flushed with water, to stop the rust?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could do that, or better cut the overlapping piece back to good metal, clean and treat the inner fender piece, then weld on a replacement strip of metal, or if enough of the original metal is available, stitch weld the two pieces together.


[ QUOTE ]

What should I do on the rear deck to right side upper piece. The tabs that come down are almost gone. Grind that out and weld a patch across the join line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am still pondering on how to approach this. I could cut the seam out and weld in new metal with a crease to imitate the original seam. Or if there is enough good metal on top, weld the two pieces at the seam, grind off the bottom, finish up and have no seam. I am a frustrated purest, so I will probably do the former.

A word of caution if you have to weld new metal on the fender edges. As you know the process of welding will cause the metal to shrink when cooled. Normally this is not a big deal, but when it happens along the edge of the fender it will distort the body line. (I learned the hard way) Go slow and frequently check the panel's fit.

A lot has been said about heat problems with gas welding or brazing. As with any tool, if used properly you can get fine results... See attached image of a gas welded plugged jack hole in my floor board.

Anyway, as I have said earlier, whatever works for you works.

Now the fun begins...