Engine painted! Questions on Oil?

[Falkon]

Engine is back together and painted. Still waiting on the cam bolt from moss, once i get that i can put the engine back in the car. Here are some pictures of the engine just before and after. Still some touch up spots and have to remove some over spray, other than that it looks pretty good.

Also wondering what type of oil (synthetic or regular) and what kind (thicker or thinner) of oil i should put in. Iv been told that i can go either way but i would like to know what would be best and give me the best performance.

 

[smaceng]

I use VR1 Valvoline 20-50 and have been happy so far. this oil seams to be one of the more popular choices for our cars.
Scott in CA

 

[jlaird]

Surely is red. LOL

 

[Guest]

Surely is red. LOL

Then he should use redline oil. :laugh:

 

[TulsaFred]

There are really 2 issues:

1. ZDDP
2. Viscosity

If you go with the latest API grade (SM I believe is the most current) you will be assured, regardless of brand, that the oil meets service requirements far in excess of the oils available when our cars were built. Unfortunately, due to concern for catalytic converter life, the phosphorus in the form of ZDDP has been steadily reduced with successive classifications. That is no problem for modern roller cam engines, but it is a problem for older flat tappet engines like ours. The ZDDP is a critical component for prevention of "sliding surface" wear (eg. hydraulic lifters sliding on cam lobes). As many here know, there have been reports of catastrophic cam failures ("wiped cam lobe") with increasing frequency associated with these lowered levels of zinc/phosphorus (below 1000-1200 ppm).
NONE of the current standard oils have adequate ZDDP, although the phosphorus reductions mandated by the government only apply to fuel saving oil grades. This is, I believe, any multiviscosity with 10 or lower ("winter weight") and/or 40 or lower on the higher end. Eg. a 20W-50 or 15W-50 oil would not be mandated to have the lower zinc/phos levels. That is not to say the levels are adequate, only that the government doesn't REQUIRE that they be inadequate.
The options are to use a ZDDP oil additive (but mixing the correct concentration is important because too much ZDDP is as bad as too little). Alternatively, use a non-fuel saving oil that has been tested and shown to have adequate levels of ZDDP. Mobil 1 15W-50 is one such oil, and it would be a good choice for our engines if a synthetic is desired (that's a whole other subject). Another option is a classic car oil that contains adequate ZDDP, but these oils cannot carry the API service category rating, and therefore you don't know if the other aspects of the oil tested by the API are as good as an API rated oil. Finally, some have used diesel oil such as API CJ-4 oils like DeLo or Rotella. These truck oils have been exempt from the zinc/phos requirements in the past, but it appears they are also now lowering the levels in these oils, such that it may no longer be a good choice.
It's complicated. I use Mobil 1 15W-50 currently.

Fred

 

[Falkon]

ok well that was a lot more info than I was looking for but thanks. Gives me a lot to watch for and consider.

 

[Guest]

The options are to use a ZDDP oil additive (but mixing the correct concentration is important because too much ZDDP is as bad as too little). Fred

I intentonally put "too much" in mine. My motor has new bearnings and such, but had no machine work. I figured, if the ZDDP builds up, it can only help my .002 out-of-round crank and loose everything else. It's been working great. 12K so far since "rebuild" and a ran the crap out it today for an hour @4K-5500 in 98 degree weather w/ no oil cooler and "old" oil. If it isn't fresh (engine), IMO it can't hurt. YMMV.

P.S I use Lucas oil treatment too.

 

[TulsaFred]

Actually, I think too much ZDDP CAN actually hurt.

Engineering flat tappet cam wear tests reportedly demonstrate an inflection at around 1200-1400 ppm zinc. Levels higher than this lead to greater wear. The optimum appears to be 1000-1200 ppm.

More is not always better. It's kind of like breast size, imho. Bigger is better only to a point. If they hang to the knees and cause stretch marks, well you get the idea.

But then this is just an opinion. The ZDDP data is scientific...

 

[Spridget64SC]

The application can affect ZDDP content requirements. If this was just a rebuild of the existing engine, and no cam related components changed, then I would use the 20w50 Valvoline VR-1 or 15w50 Mobil 1 or other quality oil with ZDDP in the 1200 ppm range.

If there is a reground/new cam and/or new/resurfaced lifters, then I would up the ZDDP content for the intial run-in of the engine to near or slightly above 2000 ppm. Many of the aftermarket cam companies and Joe Gibbs racing in particular make a special break-in oil just for that purpose.

This also makes the assumption that a ZDDP rich assembly lube was used on the cam and lifters. Remember to not let the engine idle at normal rpms upon initial start up. Set idle in the 2000-2500 rpm range to ensure sufficient oil splash for cam/lifter lubrication.

Change run-in oil and filter at 500 miles.

Looks good and good luck!

Mike Miller

 

[Gerard]

NONE of the current standard oils have adequate ZDDP, although the phosphorus reductions mandated by the government only apply to fuel saving oil grades.

Actually, I think too much ZDDP CAN actually hurt.

Engineering flat tappet cam wear tests reportedly demonstrate an inflection at around 1200-1400 ppm zinc. Levels higher than this lead to greater wear. The optimum appears to be 1000-1200 ppm.

More is not always better. It's kind of like breast size, imho. Bigger is better only to a point. If they hang to the knees and cause stretch marks, well you get the idea.

But then this is just an opinion. The ZDDP data is scientific...

OK, now you have me confused. You first statement "NONE"... and then you state "Optimum... 1000-1200 ppm"

My research indicates that both VR1 and Delo 400 are both well in that range.

Can you clarify what you include in "NONE"?

 

[recordsj]

two interesting articles on the use of ZDDP. both are NOT in support of the need for older cars. one of the articles is from a GM engineer.

https://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/oils_and_zddp.pdf
https://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/oil_myths.pdf


also see these interesting links about ZDDP in oil
https://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/ZDDP.htm
https://www.svmgcc.org/tech_tips/oil_is_killing.htm

 

[Roger]

I found the following on the Castrol website.

Works for me in my Twin Cam engines.

 

[Guest]

The ZDDP data is scientific...

I would tend to believe that if I didn't have 12K on this motor and the valves are still in adjustment. This thing shouldn't stay together at all much less this long and how hard I run it. The crank was horrible looking. I polished down the sharp ridges in the middle of a few journals and put it back together. I was hoping just to stretch it out another 10K nice and easy before it fragged but she still runs great. I could see where it might effect a fresh new motor, but not mine.

Sometimes science and fact just don't agree; like w/ a bumble bee. I guess the bee didn't read the findings.

Maybe they just can't read...but then why do they call them spelling bees?!?!?!?! :confuse:

Oh, I see....if they were reading bees. :laugh:

 

[TulsaFred]

Gerard,

By NONE, I meant none of the typical routinely selected oils off the shelf in most auto stores. Sorry to be confusing, although the whole subject can get that way.

There are some oils available that may meet the required levels, but they are either:

1. non-API certified oils ("racing oils" eg. VR1, Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs; or "classic car oils" eg. Classic Car Motor Oil). These are labeled not "street legal" and not required to pass stringent API testing. Notice the lack of the API designation on the bottles. Lack of API service category testing and certification is a major problem for these oils since there is much beyond ZDDP involved in a quality oil.

2. non-"fuel conserving" meaning winter weight above 10 and full viscosity >40. These oils, I believe, are exempt from the government requirements. That doesn't mean they contain adequate levels, only that they MAY contain adequate levels, and are not prevented by government regulation from having adequate Zinc/phosphorus. They may or may not. Some test data is available online that can give some guidance, but there is no way of knowing if the company changes the formula, which they do periodically.

3. Diesel oils which are not subject to the API passenger vehicle test suite leading to "SM" service rating. The diesel oils (eg. Chevron Delo, Shell Rotella) are certified by a different test suite resulting in "CJ-4" service category rating. This test suite, in the past, had tougher sliding surface wear requirements, which resulted in the need for higher zddp levels to pass the tests. Since they were exempt from the government passenger vehicle regulations they were ALLOWED to contain the higher levels. Now, however, I am hearing that the diesel CJ-4 oils are no longer reliably higher in zddp because of toughening emissions standards forthcoming for trucks.

The thing I like about Mobil 1 is that the levels of zinc/phosphorus for each of their oils are published by Mobil. This is reliable since no major multinational oil company would risk publishing composition data that is not accurate, the liability is too high and the market for old car oil is too inconsequential. Here is the link:

https://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

Notice the levels of zinc and phosphorus in Mobil 1 15W-50 (1200 and 1300 ppm ... perfect!). I've also used the Turbo-diesel Truck 5W-40 (1100 and 1200 ppm).

Fred

Fred

 

[TulsaFred]

BTW, some believe the issue with ZDDP and flat tappet wear may be overblown for mildly run street cruisers. If you don't stress the cam/lifters with high rpm, high lift, high spring rates, etc. it may not be that important.
Hard to know for sure, so I generally take the safer route of ensuring adequate levels even though I don't race my cars. It's easy enough to pick up Mobil 1. It's an excellent oil irregardless of zddp.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

I did not read if the motor was freshly rebuilt, I assuming it is, and if so you would never want to use a synthetic oil to break a motor in, the rings may never seat. Valvoline VR1 is 1200 PPM ZDDP dino-based oil, it's not expensive and easy to find, thats what I use in both the street and race engines, 20/50 VR1 in the street engines.

 

[Rut]

I'm new to this, but the VR1 I use states 'Exceeds API services SM/SL/CD and all preceding API gasoline categories' and in the circle on the bottle, 'API SERVICE SM'. Please help me understand this.
Thanks, Rut

 

[jlaird]

i think I will convert to that new Castrol for Miss Agatha.

 

[TulsaFred]

Hap,
I know many have said that rings won't seat when using synthetics. Not knowing the specifics, I would also choose a dino oil for break in, but I really don't know if it matters. I do know that synthetics are factory fill for most new performance cars such as the Corvette, and those rings seat just fine.


Rut,
Is your VR1 the 20W-50 or single viscosity SAE 30, 40, or 50? In that case, it is a non-fuel conserving oil and therefore exempt from the zinc/phos limitations (for the time being.. big brother will continue to creep...). That would explain it's ability to carry API SM rating. The API SM phosphorus limitation only applies to winter weight 10W or less as discussed above. However, ANY oil with winter weight 10 or lower carrying the API SM service category rating is limited to 800 ppm phosphorus by your federal government, and is therefore not a good choice for flat tappet engines.

The higher viscosity oils (allowed to have higher phosphorus and therefore zinc) that have been independently tested and shown to have 1200-1400 ppm zinc/phos (eg. VR1, Castrol Syntec 20W-50) are OK choices if you want a higher viscosity oil. They should protect sliding surface wear adequately. However, keep in mind that it has been estimated that 80+% of engine wear occurs at startup because oil is still to "thick" to lubricate. The problem is compounded by the higher winter weight viscosity oils. The lowest winter weights (eg. 0W-xx) are still to thick to lubricate at startup. Synthetic oils flow better when cold and minimize the problems with lubrication at start up. That's why I generally choose Mobil 1. It is 15W winter weight, but that's better than 20W, and since it is synthetic it flows better than a 15W dino oil.

Fred

 

[Falkon]

Well I definitely think I have enough information to make my final decision even though I dont really know what that is yet lol.

Thanks Everyone