TR2/3/3A Timing, fuel mixture, complete headache and total misunderstanding of it all

[CJD]

Bill, you are correct...assuming you assembled the engine by the book, and the timing mark on the pulley lines up with the marker, then there are 2 possible ways to have the engine when the marks align. One is correct, with both valves completely closed...and the other is NOT correct, where the valves for the #1 are "rocking" between open and closed. For your static timing, the engine rotates CW from the front, so you want the mark on the pulley left of the pointer by about 3/8" to set the timing with the engine off.

For your second....there are 2 types of lights you can use. If you are using a strobe, then hook it up with power to the battery...and the pickup clipped around the #1 high tension plug wire. If you have a 20+ year old strobe, you will have to pull the #1 plug wire and insert the pick-up wire in line with the plug wire.

The second type of timing light...is just an electrical test light. For this one, it is not designed to take the thousands of volts in the high tension side...so it goes on the low tension side of the distributor. One side of the simple light goes to the Negative on the battery (assuming you are still positively grounded). The second side will clip to the wire coming out of the distributor...and it can be on the coil.

When you are turning the distributor, you are seeing the flash for 2 different cylinders. You want the one where the rotor is towards the #1 spark plug, and the vacuum advance is pointing almost straight forward. Again, this is assuming you assembled the engine by the book...and the rotor points to the #1 plug at TDC.

So...set the pointer 3/8" left of the mark, with both valves closed.
Then, turn the distributor in the direction of rotation (arrow) shown on the rotor, slightly past where the vacuumm advance mechanism is pointed forward. Then slowly turn the distributor the opposite direction until the strobe flashes or test light goes out. That's your spot to tighten the distributor at about 3 degrees before TDC.

Realize that using this method the rotor never moves...the distributor is moving around the stationary rotor. With the strobe, the cap has to be on the distributor. With the simple test light, the cap can be off.

 

[Lukens]

Bill, a little off topic here, but perhaps helpful.
I see you're in Tampa/St. Pete. The nearby town of Safety Harbor has one of the best all British car shows in the area... October 24th. Our club Sarasota will be there. Contact me before the show if you can make it. If not, I'm in your area often, I'll be glad to take a look at your problems.
Russ

 

[2billydavies]

Hi Randall.... this is driving me nuts. I've read everything from the actual manual, to the "tips for maintenance book" from 55 years ago that came with the car... to the websites you all posted above. literally everything. and after 4 hours today it won't event start now. lol... yesterday it started right up but ran lousy. today it won't even start and you can just hear the timing being all screwed up. i think i'm so confused now as to top dead center that i'm going to push this car back into the garage and take a month off from it. i cannot believe how complicated i make this out to be.

first... yes, i'm totally OK with the test light (i said timing but meant test). I know how to do it fine. I can get it to work just like everyone has been describing. the problem is even after following every bit of info you guys have all posted i'm still right where ive been for 4 days: it won't start. it backfires trying to start... so here's what i've done today ....

I literally pulled the distributor OUT of the engine. I put the car in TDC according to the mark on the pulley and pulling the spark plugs and watching the #1 piston come up. It's perfectly in line with the pulley hole and the timing chain cover pointer. The valve is closed on #1. Here's a new question for you: does it matter HOW the distributor goes back in? I mean, there doesn't seem to be any marks or anything on the gears or anything... I just drop it right back in then put the actual distributor back on. I have so spin the shaft a little until it drops completely in... but that's how I've done it. Is this correct or am i screwing this up? Also... I aligned the gear inside engine so that when i do drop the distributor back in, the shaft on top of the distributor clearly points to #1 spark plug (this is what this entire thing was about.... me not liking the vacuum unit pointing straight ahead instead of down and to the left and the shaft on distributor not pointing towards #1 spark plug in TDC like the manuals say it should!) I literally had to take the gear out, spin it until I could get the shaft on the distributor to point to #1 spark plug while in TDC.

I feel like I am completely screwing up TDC. but I don't know why. it isn't a complicated thing to understand at all...
Now i feel like i put the distributor iteslf back in wrong, if that's even possible. it doesn't appear to go in any other way but down. lol

I"m taking a break. i'm going to watch my philly eagles get their butts whooped again this afternoon.... really get into a bad mood... and try again. lol

 

[carpecursusII]

I can be there wednesday morning!

 

[glemon]

It sounds like your firing order is off, which means your plug wires aren't going to the right plug, the car will run this way but will backfire, sputter etc. like you describe. Firing order is 1-3-4-2. So if you have one right the next post the rotor goes to on the dist. should be connected to the plug wire that goes to plug #3, etc.

Easiest way to set timing, once it is running reasonably smoothly (see above) start the car with the distributor timing clamp nut loose so you can turn it by hand. With a leather glove on turn the distributor slowly back and forth. It should idle faster as you advance it or turn it towards the directions the rotor spins. Keep advancing until your idle stops increasing. Then back it off a little, if it starts slow down again as you back off or retard you have gone to far. Stop the car, tighten the timing adjustment clamp and your good to go. There are instructions for fine tuning using this method that are in numerous books or I can provide if this simple method works.

Good luck, Greg

 

[2billydavies]

ok... i officially give up. 5 hours under the hood and nothing. won't start. i'm pushing this car right into the Bay. lol
Just to recap everything I have literally done today... let me know if you can see anything i've missed, screwed up, forgot... or broke. lol

@Glemon.... nope, not the firing order. I have that correct. I taped it all off and wrote it and also took pictures so I wouldn't screw that up. That's actually the only thing I didn't screw up i think.

Ok... I put the car in TDC. I"m positive its in TDC. I felt the pressue coming up to the #1 piston when I moved it, I looked at the open valve... it's in TDC. The pulley is lined up with the pointer..... i'm pretty sure i'm straight on that now.

I literally took the distributor out of the engine. The small key notch is pointing down and to the left, exactly how the picture in the typical shop manual says it should be. When I put the shaft on the distributor it clearly points right at the #1 rod sleeve.... exactly like the picture. I then put the distributor "thing" back on and slid the distributor body back into it. Bolted it down with two bolts, left the clamp loose so I could set the timing with my test lights.
Before timing, I re-checked the points for 11,000 time this weekend. Exactly at .016 space... which I did while the block was on the highest point of the 4-cornered lobe.

Then I hooked up my test light.... put the one end on a ground and touched the other end on the + small screw of the coil. It's one of those screwdriver looking things with the little tiny piece of wire in the middle of the handle. When electricity gets to it the light glows. I use it all the time. I slowly rotated the distributor CCW until the light barely came on. Then I tightened the distributor.

Put the distributor lid back on... tried to fire her up... and nothing. just cranks and cranks with the occasional loud backfire from the tailpipe.

This is exactly what I did.... probably 40 times today. Either i'm completely screwing something up or she hates me. I'm leaning towards she hates me right now.

Is there anything here that you guys can see that I messed up or missed? I've literally read and re-read every one of your posts a million times. I cannot believe how hard this is. lol

 

[poolboy]

Since you asked...if you haven't reached out to Lukens and at least thanked him for his generous offer, then I'd say that would be where you 'screwed up"

 

[TR3driver]

I slowly rotated the distributor CCW until the light barely came on.

I still think that should be clockwise.

Do you have a regular timing (strobe) light? If so, try hooking it up and seeing where the mark falls under the light.

One other point, that perhaps you have already addressed (but if so I missed it in the conversation). It is possible for the pulley to be assembled such that the mark is not at TDC. 6 bolts give 6 different ways it can be assembled, only one is right. Might be worth turning to the mark then peering down the #1 plug hole (or probing with a plastic straw or similar) to ensure that the piston is near the top.

Not that it matters, but the point gap should be .015", not .016". But it can be off by several thousandths and still let the engine run, so certainly not the problem here.

 

[2billydavies]

Hi Russ... thanks for the info. yup, I live in St. Pete... very familiar with Safety Harbor. There is a good chance that I will definitely be home during that weekend (I travel around the state normally on weekends with my son's baseball team) but I won't know until closer to that weekend. I would LOVE to check out that show.

There is a good chance... a very good chance after what I went though this past weekend... that my TR3 is going to be still sitting in my garage by then, too. This timing thing really has me stumped. If you're ever up this way and have some free time I would LOVE for you to swing by and show me a few things on timing. Thanks a ton!

 

[2billydavies]

Randall: yes, thought about that. problem is, after I put the engine back in after the rebuild, it ran great... and that was with the pulley right where it's at. I'm 99.999999% positive the pulley is correctly at TDC. Plus, i've had the #1 plug out a million times today, looking inside it. the piston is at the top.

this literally all happened because i didn't like the way the vacuum was pointing down and to the left instead of pointing straight ahead. it all went to **** after I loosened it, turned it... then tried to time it.

 

[glemon]

good to hear the order it OK, no one had mentioned it, so thought it was worth a try. Trying not to be insulting but you keep talking about where the distributor points, as Randall and others have mentioned, other than looking right, this doesn't really matter, what matters is that the rotor points to the contact on the inside of the distributor that corresponds to the wire going to number one cylinder when number one is at TDC on the compression stroke, and the firing order (plug wire in distributor) is correct after that. If that is the case, even if your timing is not tuned or is many degrees off the car should start and run.

If you have a willing partner who can crank the motor you can loosen the distributor nut and turn the distributor back and forth slowly with a gloved hand while the engine cranks to see if there is a place where it will fire. I have done this when firing up for the first time with electronic ignition, which I don't know how to static time (different subject entirely, but same methods if tried may get the car running).

Also--couple other things that can cause problems when you take the cap off to do a tune up and timing, not saying this is it, but it has happened to me and I am sure others:

1. You forget to put the distributor rotor back on

2. A trickier one, there is a little contact in the inside center of the distributor that sticks out to make contact with the rotor, it is on a spring, they have been known to stick or fall out. Check it by making sure it is there and pushing on it to make sure it is moving freely.

3. Whenever you work with a system you can unintentionally disturb something else in the system. I know you probably have already, but double check to see if all the wires in the ignition system are plugged on tight, plug wires and all the leads going to the coil and cap.

BTW, looks like your Eagles won in convincing fashion, life could be worse, you could be a Cornhusker fan.

 

[TR-3rg]

Hi,

I just noticed you said the vacuum advance was pointing down when the car ran well. Have you checked the location of the crank pulley? Its a symmetrical bolt pattern and I think it might be off by a hole. I went thru this with my TR-3 when I first go it.

Its easy to check. Remove all of the spark plugs. Turn the engine over to TDC per the hole in the pulley. Shine a light in the #1 spark plug hole. You should see the piston. If not the pulley is off. Next, check both rocker arms on cylinder #1, they both should be loose. If they are, then you are at TDC firing. If they are not, rotate the crank 360 degrees again and check. Now they should be. Once at TDC firing, check the slot in the oil pump drive gear, it should be point in in the direction shown in the shop book. Note, the slot in the oil pump drive gear is OFFSET. It can be pointing in the correct direction, but force the distributer to be 180 degrees out.

Good Luck! Roy

 

[2billydavies]

Not insulting at all. I'm missing something I just don't know what. As far as having someone push the starter while I spin the distributor... yup, already tried that yesterday a few times. My father recommended trying that. It just cranks and cranks with the occasional backfire from the tailpipe. I'm really starting to wonder if I did something else to the electrical system now and that's the problem. Even if the timing was still off, meaning I fixed absolutely nothing... shouldn't it still start but run lousy?

@TR-3rg: you have me thinking a bit. I have done everything you've said... when I align the pulley hole to the pointer, yes, I can see the #1 piston at the top. However, only the very 1st rocker has some play in it... the 2nd one it feels pretty tight, definitely some pressure on it. Are you saying they should both be loose with some play in them? Just a recap... I rebuilt this engine myself. Took me 6 months, a boat-load of questions in this forum... so this means I also set the clearances and everything on the rocker/valves, etc.... I did it by the book, but it was my very first time even seeing rocker arms and valves, etc. I installed the pulley myself as well.... I thought I did it correctly, but looking back on it and since it was my first time seeing the inside of an engine it's very possible i have it a bolt off or something. If both rockers are not "loose" as you suggest above, does this sound like something that has to do with the timing of it? And yes... the car ran fine, but the vacuum unit was pointing almost at a 7 o'clock position rather than straight ahead. This is how this all started.... the saw a picture, read a few posts, and thought "well geez, i want my vacuum pointing straight ahead" and here I am. I'm starting to wish I just got used to the vaccum pointing at the front left headlight. lol

Thanks for the info.... I'm going to have a party when I get this thing running. you're all invited.

 

[sp53]

I believe you have everything fine except the firing order or the drive gear. Find a book with a picture and copy that -1-3-4-2. You probably have 3 and 4 wrong. This is simple; do not over think it. There are many pictures out there that have a view looking down on the distributor cap. Just put the plug wires the way you see them and see what happens. If you still have problem, then when you installed the distributor drive gear it was one tooth off, common mistake.. To find that out; line the marks up on the compression stroke then carefully lift the distributor cap up and see what plug wire the rotor points at; it should #1. fly me down!

 

[Merlin63Tr4]

Yes, with No.1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke, both valve rockers should have play.
Looks like your pulley is not indexed correctly.

M.

 

[sp53]

Merlin makes a good point with #1 TDC compression both valve springs should be relaxed fully and should have .10 clearance cold. With the valve cover off this would be a good time to check the valve clearance on all the valves. But like you said, it ran fine until you moved the distributor, so your main problem is timing. It is simple fix and you wrap your mind around soon.

 

[TR-3rg]

Hi, Try spinning the crank 360 degrees, that should be TDC compression. Both valves should be loose. Remove the distributer cap and see where the rotor is pointing. With the vacuum advance at about 9 o'clock, the rotor should be pointing about 10:30. If not the oil pump drive gear is out of phase. Lift it up and rotate it as needed. There should book has a pretty good picture of this in the shop book if I remember correctly.

When I got my TR-3, the crank pulley was off by a hole, (60 degrees) and the oil pump drive was 180 degrees out. The "restoration shop" changed the wire locations in the cap and twisted the distributor to get it to run. I went thru all of this before I realized the issue with the mechanical advance I mentioned earlier in the tread.

Good Luck, Roy

 

[glemon]

To answer your question, the old TRactor motor is tough and they usually want to run. If timing is in the ballpark it should start, even if a couple plug wires are reversed it should start (but will run like crap). Either your timing is still way off, or I you have some other issues, or the dreaded multiple fault where even if you find fault one you don't know you have it right because fault two is still keeping you from going. Which of course makes trial and error fixing much harder. The Lucas Fault Finding Manual (I don't have a link handy on my phone) does a great "if all else fails" walk through of testing the ignition system. Maybe back to basics, make sure you have fuel pumping through the lines and spark at the plug and go from there.

Greg

 

[2billydavies]

hi guys. guess who... lol
So after thinking about this all day long at work, I came home and took it all apart again. based on @TR-3rg's comments above, and many, many more... I actually took the oil drive gear out and turned it until the actual rotor arm pointed towards the #1 plug wire on top of the actual distributor cap. This is completely different than every manual and every comment I've read thus far (rotor should point to #1 spark plug). I did this with the pulley mark lined up at top TDC (or what it appears to be TDC). Put it all back together after "setting the timing" with my test light... and it fired right up after a quick push of the starter button.
Sooooo..... with that said. I've noticed a few things. A) clearly my pulley hole isn't lined up correctly, which tells me I guess I installed it wrong or a bolt "off." I dont' know how I did that... I really thought I was being way too careful when I did it.
B) from what everyone is saying, at TDC, the first 2 valves over the #1 spark plug should be nice and relaxed. Well, the first one is, but the 2nd one has tension on it that I couldn't move the rocker at all (like I could with the first one). So I guess my clearances are wrong on the valves as well... correct?
Also.... she did fire right up.... but there is a definite "clanking" noise coming out of it.... that wasn't there before. It's a distinct clanking noise, so I'm assuming the timing is still definitely off. sputters a bit when I hit the gas.
I'm not touching her again until I hear a few comments about the everything above. I'm just happy she started. lol.... what do you all suggest about fixing these issues? I guess the pulley is off a few bolts... which i still find hard to believe considering how careful and how many times I checked it when I did the rebuild. but then again... my first time inside an engine. what could go wrong? lol

 

[glemon]

We tried: "And as noted, this is just a nominal relationship. What is important is that the rotor is pointing to where the #1 terminal will be when the cap is installed; meaning that the #1 spark plug would get the spark. If the drive gear was not installed in the correct relationship to the camshaft, then the DPO (or his mechanic) may shuffled the spark plug wires around, and/or turned the distributor body to compensate for the gear position. The engine will run just fine that way, it doesn't "care" as long as the correct cylinder gets the spark at the correct time. But if you do find that has happened, you might want to consider taking it apart and moving the gear, to reduce confusion in the future." Randall

"you keep talking about where the distributor points, as Randall and others have mentioned, other than looking right, this doesn't really matter, what matters is that the rotor points to the contact on the inside of the distributor that corresponds to the wire going to number one cylinder when number one is at TDC on the compression stroke, and the firing order (plug wire in distributor) is correct after that. If that is the case, even if your timing is not tuned or is many degrees off the car should start and run." Glemon


There was a lot said, know it can be hard to sift through it all. On a more forward looking and constructive note, best guess, the clanking is coming from the timing being too far advanced, and you are getting what the British call "pinking", setting timing to spec should fix that.

Second, it could be the valves adjusted wrong, the manual has instructions, basically the rule of 9:


adjust #1 with#8 fully open (meaning #8, at the rear end of the motor, is all the way pushed down by the rocker arm making it "open" in the head, while #1 then should have some clearance between arm and valve, adjust to the factory spec. (.010" or .012" for the tractor motor, but don't quote me on it)
""""" #3 """"#6 """"""""
#5 #4
#2 #7
#8 #1
#6 #3
#4 #5
#7 #2

Good Luck, Greg