TR2/3/3A The Book!!!

[James A Martin]

Jm Martin
1962 Triumph TR3B
TCF2326L



I finally got my car on the ground and took it for a shakedown. I probably went a little too hard, downshifting into corners and accelerating out.. I lost a little speed on a hill but RPMs were still high. I turned around and headed to the shop.Ttwo miles later I had no movement with the pedal out and in gear. I thought it had something to do with the clutch operating fork after reading several posts. The symptoms were as follows: Pedal out gears not engaged. Could go through all gears and reverse with engine running. When I pushed the pedal down while in gear I got some foreward movement and some metal on metal noise. Didn't do that again. I got the car back, up on stands and removed the transmission. The peg that holds the fork on the shaft was in place, not sheared, and wired down. Then I looked in the book....
The return spring on the slave cylinder shaft is missing. It is a small spring and dosen't look like it should cause any trouble. I'm hopeing installing this will cure the problem.
I'm posting this because there might be something else I'm missing or just ignorant of. Any response would be apreciated before I reinstall the transmission as it is a bear of a job.

Thank You For Your Time
James A Martin AWS/CWI
Cell: 870.847.6154
singingwelder1y:atyahoo.com

 

[CJD]

The fork peg would have the opposite symptom...pedal in but the clutch still drags. I hate to say, but I don’t think the missing spring would cause your issue either.

I would try bleeding the clutch system first and then check for full travel of the slave piston. Then triple check the master rod adjustment and slave rod adjustments. If the master is not fully releasing, then it will not replenish the fluid in the line.

 

[STeve 1958]

If the fluid pressure in the clutch is not releasing, the slave cylinder will remain depressed and tight. If the slave cylinder releases but the clutch doesn't you've got a bigger problem inside the clutch.

 

[James A Martin]

If the fluid pressure in the clutch is not releasing, the slave cylinder will remain depressed and tight. If the slave cylinder releases but the clutch doesn't you've got a bigger problem inside the clutch.

And that is what I'm worried about. I believe the slave is retracting as intended. the slave shaft is not mechanically connected to the slave cylinder but the spring keeps it against the piston while pulling the fork shaft lever back into position. My problem is.. the only way I can think of to troubleshoot all this is to reinstall the transmission when there may be a problem with the clutch to begin with. Hummmm.

 

[CJD]

You are correct. The tranny must be in place to troubleshoot the clutch mechanism. There was a lot to be checked before pulling your tranny back out. Do you suspect a problem internal with the clutch? Have you mixed a diaphram plate clutch with TR3 parts or such?

 

[sp53]

I am easily confused, did I read that you can have the engine running with the clutch out and shift through all the gears? I mean it is a manual trans and direct drive it should not be able to do that with the clutch in the car. If I am reading this correct you have a clutch problem at the disk. I do not think it is the spring either because the clutch would be struck on with that or if air is in the line the clutch would be stuck on. I would get a spring at TRF because they sell a spring for the early cars and the later cars and my experience is the wrong spring causes problems

 

[James A Martin]

You are correct. The tranny must be in place to troubleshoot the clutch mechanism. There was a lot to be checked before pulling your tranny back out. Do you suspect a problem internal with the clutch? Have you mixed a diaphram plate clutch with TR3 parts or such?

No changes to the clutch on my part. I just bled the clutch system and I do have a hydraulic lock. I guess it was gradual when driving and didn't think to check it before going for the clutch fork. The pedal was not locked. Over thought and less complicated than I wanted. I now see how the symptoms would be reversed. I have a new MC on hand and will install it after I get the tranny back in. I'll let you know how that works out. Well just because the weather has changed is no reason to jump to conclusions when doing Triumph.

And one more reply... Yes the engine was running, in gear and no engagement. I could shift W/o pushing the clutch.but when I pushed the pedal the car would move. I had never had that happen before so I over complicated the problem. Being what I now believe to be a MC failure and being gradual, I confused myself...I never tried to push the pedal until John and steve got me to slow down and look at it from another point of view.
Without the Forum many more Triumphs would be long scraped....

 

[CJD]

It is likely the pushrod adjustment at fault on the MC. I doubt you need a new cylinder.

Second possible for a hydraulic lock is a bad rubber hose, coming apart from the inside.

 

[James A Martin]

It is likely the pushrod adjustment at fault on the MC. I doubt you need a new cylinder.

Second possible for a hydraulic lock is a bad rubber hose, coming apart from the inside.

The hose is new The clutch MC is at least 45 years old. The Brake MC is new and I ordered both at the same time after rebuilding the old ones. The rebuild failed on the break MC so I installed a new one but the rebuilt clutch MC worked fine for almost an hour total till now. I've got a new one in the box. Live and learn. I've stopped not fixing every thing in reach when I dissassemble something on this car.

 

[sp53]

I guess I do not know what a hydraulic lock is? Does that mean your clutch was disengaged and you could shift gears with the motor running and the clutch NOT pushed in? It still sounds to me like you blew the clutch pressure plate up or spun the center of the disc out. From my point of--Maybe hold off on reinstalling the trans.
steve

 

[James A Martin]

I guess I do not know what a hydraulic lock is? Does that mean your clutch was disengaged and you could shift gears with the motor running and the clutch NOT pushed in? It still sounds to me like you blew the clutch pressure plate up or spun the center of the disc out. From my point of--Maybe hold off on reinstalling the trans.
steve

The MC locks without allowing fluid back into the resivoir and will only retract or reset when the bleed nipple is open on the slave cylinder.

The clutch symptoms did not come on at once but gradually while driving. It started loosing speed on a gradual hill with RPMNs staying the same or actually going up. After several miles There was No engagement at all like the clutch was stuck upen, came to a stand still and I could move the gear shifter thrugh the gears while the engine was running. With the engine running and transmission in gear I pushed the clutch pedal in and the car moved foreward and there was metal to metal sounds, not loud but I shut it down at once.. The clutch MC was not locked at that time, but is now.

 

[Graham H]

I would check the clutch to make sure it hasn't come apart inside, are the pressure relief leavers hard on the casing there has to be a problem in there for it to make grinding noises also the clutch release fork tapper pin could be broken. Hold the fork and put some pressure on the operating leaver to make sure there is no movement, it can all look good but still be broken .

Graham

 

[James A Martin]

Thanks Grahm,
Yes I checked the fork and it operates with pressure applied. The noise was More of a slight knocking or loud clicking than a grinding ( I see no fresh bare metal marks) All looks and feels well at the pressure plate contact points. I'm going to change the MC as the brake MC had similar symptoms, locking the front brakes. New MC fixed that, ( flex lines, most metal lines and slave cylinders on rear, the front slaves were good.) If the MC replacement dosent fix the issue I'll just get back in and upgrade the clutch There is a difference between a hobby and an obsession.....

 

[sp53]

It sounds like the transmission is out, and if that is case there is no real way to check the hydraulics because the clutch arm is out of the car that would move the fork. I agree with Graham pull the clutch out to have a look because it is difficult to see the problem. My guess is you burned up the disc; it could have been rubbing for a while and that could have been caused by no return spring.

One possible way to check is to get a clutch aligning tool with spines install that into the splines of the disc and see if you can turn it by hand or wise grips; it should not move that easily.

There are only like 5 bolts around the clutch and it will come right out, so that is what I would do. You can look at the flywheel that way also. You have done all the difficult stuff my removing the trans the rest is easy.

steve

 

[James A Martin]

Thanks Steve,

Alignment tool is on the way.

 

[James A Martin]

Pressure plate and clutch is out and they look just like all the pics of bad parts I found on the innerweb. I found displaced metal on the Pressure plate ears (on the oppisite side of the release bearing contact point) and the clutch disc where the 6 spring retaining openings protrude. That was the noise I heard!!! There looks to be a good deal of meat left on the clutch disc, .3180-.3220" But i think the disc is 40-45 years old. So... Pressure Plate and Clutch disc are on the way. I'm going to have the fly wheel resurfaced while I'm waitng on the parts. I'll be pouring over the net for torque values soon. I installed the new MC and got good results, No more hydraulic lock...I'm looking at a week on the inside for another attempt at a round trip drive.

 

[sp53]

I would pull the bolt out of the clutch fork to be sure that the bolt is not sheered. In addition, get a slave return spring from TRF to match your car which sounds like a later car, they will know from the vin, granting it is not modified.

steve

 

[James A Martin]

Steve,
Yes thanks, That was early on, just following gear box removal. The fork pin was one of the first suspects. It is pristine. I have some advice about drilling and installing another pin or bolt equal distance from the center line of the fork to prevent tiwst loading the fork and tourque stressing the original pin, which may be ae cause of failure being common.
If not for this forum and the innerweb I would've slapped the trans back in after replaceing the MC and recieving the small slave return spring in the mail, and wouldve had another one way test drive..... now I will have a new clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing with a clean fly wheel, and have a chance at a round trip test drive.
We live in amazing times....

 

[drrotor]

The

 

[drrotor]

The pictures of the disassembled clutch indicate to me that the Master Cylinder is the problem here. Sure, this is a good time to replace the clutch assembly since it's apart, but seeing the shiny wear spot on the pressure plate forks shows me that the throwout bearing was pushed too far forward, which would make the metallic noise, metal shavings, etc. Perhaps you couldn't move the car because the throwout bearing had slid so far forward that it jammed (hooked itself) on the front of the snout? This would make noise, keep the car from moving, enable you to shift through all gears while engine was running, and make the pedal unresponsive. A master cylinder with the piston pushed too far forward would cause exactly all of these things. I might add that if the clutch slave cylinder rod (or pedal to master cylinder rod) is adjusted too long with no free-play, can also cause this problem. In any case, the problem here is Hydraulic, not the trans or clutch itself.