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High oil pressure and this puddle...
- Thread starter SMGoose
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Merlin63Tr4
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I actually went "old school" on my oil pressure relief valve adjusting screw/locknut.
I wrapped a piece of flux free soldering wire around the screw threads and then, while holding the screw steady, ran down and tightened the locknut against the relief valve body mashing the solder wire.
This not only seal against oil leaks but it also seems to lock the nut in place.
Merlin
I wrapped a piece of flux free soldering wire around the screw threads and then, while holding the screw steady, ran down and tightened the locknut against the relief valve body mashing the solder wire.
This not only seal against oil leaks but it also seems to lock the nut in place.
Merlin
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alanjohnturner
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UK standard 4's have a pipe that leaves the crankcase just above the mechanical fuel-pump. This hangs down below the engine and the air draught as you go along sucks crankcase fumes away.
If this gets blocked then pressure will build up in the crankcase. Usually this is enough to force oil out of the rear seal.
Because the crankcase is being pressurised the oil pump will have an easier time picking up and the oil pressure may rise.
The pressure in the crankcase arises from leakage past the piston-rings. This is basically exhaust gas and will have a high water content. This is why there may be what we call Mayo in the oil.
You may have another way of handling crankcase ventilation but whatever you have it may be blocked.
If this gets blocked then pressure will build up in the crankcase. Usually this is enough to force oil out of the rear seal.
Because the crankcase is being pressurised the oil pump will have an easier time picking up and the oil pressure may rise.
The pressure in the crankcase arises from leakage past the piston-rings. This is basically exhaust gas and will have a high water content. This is why there may be what we call Mayo in the oil.
You may have another way of handling crankcase ventilation but whatever you have it may be blocked.
OP
SMGoose
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My TR4 does not have a breather pipe (it's a '63). All it has is a vented valve cover. Here's the picture:
I do believe that the higher pressure might be forcing fluids out of the rear seal, although I've received some pretty varied opinions on that hypothesis. I don't know where the increased pressure is coming from, however, and unfortunately I don't know enough about the innards of an engine to figure that out.
Should I add a ventilation system, a breather pipe, or just a vented oil cap? Are my piston rings worn? Anyone with a TR4 non-draft tube type that had a similar problem?
I do believe that the higher pressure might be forcing fluids out of the rear seal, although I've received some pretty varied opinions on that hypothesis. I don't know where the increased pressure is coming from, however, and unfortunately I don't know enough about the innards of an engine to figure that out.
Should I add a ventilation system, a breather pipe, or just a vented oil cap? Are my piston rings worn? Anyone with a TR4 non-draft tube type that had a similar problem?
Last edited:
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SMGoose
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I've been doing some reading about what others have done. I'm starting to think you're right, Alan, I do need to vent the crankcase better, somehow. Is this the spot where the breather pipe would go (fuel pump was removed and capped)?
Looks like mine has been removed and plugged up with no other alternative added. Should I try to get one off of ebay and put it in? I've heard it's difficult without taking out the engine. Or should I try something else easier first? Thanks everybody.
Looks like mine has been removed and plugged up with no other alternative added. Should I try to get one off of ebay and put it in? I've heard it's difficult without taking out the engine. Or should I try something else easier first? Thanks everybody.
Merlin63Tr4
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Scott,
Your Tr4 and mine (I also have a '63) originally came equipped with the emission control/engine ventilation system illustrated by the top diagram in the following Moss Motors link:
https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29123
(items 50 thru 55)
They did not have the road draft tube and did have the same valve cover that you pictured.
I found this set up to be less than ideal since there is no real way for fresh air to enter the engine since the oil filler cap was sealed, etc, etc.
And also, that long metal tube (item 51) leading from the valve cover to the flame trap, acted like a condenser and tended to clog up the flame trap with goo and once in a while would let go of a slug of "oil milkshake" and spit it into the carb intakes!
I have since then switched my Tr4 to the latter system (Tr4A) with the PCV valve as illustrated by the bottom diagram in the Moss Motors link (Items 60 thru 70).
With this setup I actually have a vacuum inside the engine at idle and cruise speeds.
My engine and oil stay a lot cleaner since I switched.
I'm sure this set up is not ideal for racing, but I don't race in city streets…..
Merlin
Your Tr4 and mine (I also have a '63) originally came equipped with the emission control/engine ventilation system illustrated by the top diagram in the following Moss Motors link:
https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29123
(items 50 thru 55)
They did not have the road draft tube and did have the same valve cover that you pictured.
I found this set up to be less than ideal since there is no real way for fresh air to enter the engine since the oil filler cap was sealed, etc, etc.
And also, that long metal tube (item 51) leading from the valve cover to the flame trap, acted like a condenser and tended to clog up the flame trap with goo and once in a while would let go of a slug of "oil milkshake" and spit it into the carb intakes!
I have since then switched my Tr4 to the latter system (Tr4A) with the PCV valve as illustrated by the bottom diagram in the Moss Motors link (Items 60 thru 70).
With this setup I actually have a vacuum inside the engine at idle and cruise speeds.
My engine and oil stay a lot cleaner since I switched.
I'm sure this set up is not ideal for racing, but I don't race in city streets…..
Merlin
Merlin63Tr4
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Scott,
I think it is very probable that your Tr was originally equipped with "open circuit breathing" like the Tr3s
The earliest Tr4 system used a road draft tube and a vented oil filler cap just like the Tr3, except the oil filler location was to the rear of the engine not like the forward location of the Tr3.
You could go back to that, but here are the bad news…
You have the wrong valve cover and oil fill cap, the road draft tube port is blocked off, you are missing the road draft tube and bracket.
The parts to return your car to original configuration are hard to come by.
It might be easier to obtain the required Tr4A parts and just convert it.
Attached is a picture of my Tr4 engine with the Tr4A PCV mods.
Merlin
I think it is very probable that your Tr was originally equipped with "open circuit breathing" like the Tr3s
The earliest Tr4 system used a road draft tube and a vented oil filler cap just like the Tr3, except the oil filler location was to the rear of the engine not like the forward location of the Tr3.
You could go back to that, but here are the bad news…
You have the wrong valve cover and oil fill cap, the road draft tube port is blocked off, you are missing the road draft tube and bracket.
The parts to return your car to original configuration are hard to come by.
It might be easier to obtain the required Tr4A parts and just convert it.
Attached is a picture of my Tr4 engine with the Tr4A PCV mods.
Merlin
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sail
Darth Vader
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Scott, I think Merlin is correct. Looks like my 4A valve cover. Correct set up for it was a PCV valve off the valve covers vent tube to the intake manifold (Merlins Picture) with the road draft tube outlet plugged (your picture.) I ditched the PCV, plugged the intake manifold, put a filter on the valve cover vent tube, pulled the block plug and added a road draft tube. That put it close to the 3 set up substituting the vent tube and filter for the earlier valve cover with vented cap. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-ven...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec7d6ed25&vxp=mtr Pulling the plug was a PITA but doable. It still leaks, but less which was the goal. ZS carbs on mine, I am not familiar with the SU's and their set up with crankcase vent to carbs.
Merlin63Tr4
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Scott,
Is that fitting on top of your intake manifold blocked off?
Is it a vacuum fitting or just a cap?
You could rig up a emission hose from the valve cover port to a modern PCV and then an emission hose from there to that fitting.
That should provide the same amount of ventilation as the Tr4A system.
Merlin
Is that fitting on top of your intake manifold blocked off?
Is it a vacuum fitting or just a cap?
You could rig up a emission hose from the valve cover port to a modern PCV and then an emission hose from there to that fitting.
That should provide the same amount of ventilation as the Tr4A system.
Merlin
alanjohnturner
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We are currently doing this topic on the UK TR Register:
https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/40698-catch-tanks-mayo-again/
The general view here is that the old TR4 open-breather works but is messy.
The TR4A PCV systems works but not everyone likes it. Its OK if you don't do high mileage or race probably.
Catch-tanks solve these pressure problem and the mess problem but bring some new problems.
I reckon the 4A system would probably suit you.
Its true that all these systems struggle if you have a worn engine.
Al
https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/40698-catch-tanks-mayo-again/
The general view here is that the old TR4 open-breather works but is messy.
The TR4A PCV systems works but not everyone likes it. Its OK if you don't do high mileage or race probably.
Catch-tanks solve these pressure problem and the mess problem but bring some new problems.
I reckon the 4A system would probably suit you.
Its true that all these systems struggle if you have a worn engine.
Al
OP
SMGoose
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Thanks, Al! I was actually just reading some old threads on that site last night. Hadn't gotten to that one yet. It's an interesting topic with seemingly no perfect solution. Yes, I think the 4A system will be fine as I usually do city driving, don't rev all that high, and rarely get it over 55 mph. I'm still going to follow the discussion, though. There's got to be that perfect solution!
alanjohnturner
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In the UK we found that not all the repro PCVs work as good as the original.
If I were doing this I'd try to find a old one. There is not much to go wrong in there.
Al.
If I were doing this I'd try to find a old one. There is not much to go wrong in there.
Al.
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SMGoose
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I know Al just suggested I find an original but I came across this PCV kit from Goodparts that was recommended on another forum: https://www.goodparts.com/shop/index.php?categoryID=8. Any thoughts?
Second part: I'm really just interested in the pcv not the oil separator but the fuel pump blank with a hole in it gave me an idea. This is just spit-balling but, since i have an electric pump, would putting a hole in the blank and installing a tube and filter create that missing fresh-air intake for the closed PCV system? I know I've read that that was one of the problems in the design of this system.
Second part: I'm really just interested in the pcv not the oil separator but the fuel pump blank with a hole in it gave me an idea. This is just spit-balling but, since i have an electric pump, would putting a hole in the blank and installing a tube and filter create that missing fresh-air intake for the closed PCV system? I know I've read that that was one of the problems in the design of this system.
OP
SMGoose
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I still haven't decided on a pressure relief method yet but I did talk to a guy who works on Triumphs in KC and he seems to think that even with just the outlet tube in the top of the valve cover that it should be enough ventilation that the oil shouldn't be seeping that much out of my rear seal.
One small thing he suggested I check is the length of the rearmost sump bolts. He said they should be shorter than the rest (~3/8") or I could put another washer on them to shorten 'em up. He said those bolts are often too long and cause bad sealing and are often overlooked. Anyone heard this before? Mine were definitely all the same size.
One small thing he suggested I check is the length of the rearmost sump bolts. He said they should be shorter than the rest (~3/8") or I could put another washer on them to shorten 'em up. He said those bolts are often too long and cause bad sealing and are often overlooked. Anyone heard this before? Mine were definitely all the same size.