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TR6 Got in a wreck - need some help on who to take it to and what to check

Geo Hahn

Yoda
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... I find your posts very helpful and eye opening. They are thought provoking and greatly appreciated.

Perhaps the main thought this should provoke is the need to periodically review your policy limits.

Hagerty uses agreed value and offers an online valuation tool if you need help pondering what value to request. Increasing the value with Hagerty couldn't be easier - you typically don't even have to talk to someone. On their website you can increase the agreed value and you'll get a reply from an underwriter in a day or two. Takes about 2 minutes. I have never had a request increase turned down - they want you to be fully insured.

I have even heard of a case where they contacted an owner with concerns that he was underinsured (a big $$$ car - don't wait for their call for what we drive).

The increase (at least with Hagerty) does not have to be at renewal -- any day is fine and they will just bill you for whatever premium increase is needed for the period until your next renewal.

When I first get a car I usually just insure it for what I paid, then increase as major parts go into it. Eventually I set it at the market level once the car condition has reached the level I was going for.
 

Brinkerhoff

Jedi Knight
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" From my standpoint, the other company is on the hook, so I am not sure why that is a factor." If the Hagerty offer is not acceptable to you , you may have to try and get the other company to pay but they will argue from the same perspective as Hagerty: They'll only pay up to a percentage of your car's book value to repair it.
 

Kleykamp

Jedi Trainee
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Geo, I also found that to be the case. I recently raised my agreed value and the agent ran an evaluation on their system, that showed considerably more than I wanted to carry. I started out with a " under construction" indorsement which automatically upped the amount by 10 percent per month until the renewal.
To clarify one of my earlier comment. I got my policy out and read it. The agreed value is the set limit of the policy and if they pay the limit they take the salvage, but you do have the option to buy it back. The cost of the buying the salvage back is not stated as a percentage, only "for an agreed amount". That would typically be determine by obtaining bids from salvage vendors.
You're correct Brinkerhoff, but the acutal value of the vehicle would be the deciding factor on who to collect from. Hagerty is a guaranteed 7000 value in this case. The responsible party is on the hook for Actual Cash Value which could be more or less than the 7000. If it's worth 5000 he would be better off to use his own policy and let them collect it back from the other carrier. They would still only be on the hook for the ACV so Hagerty would have to absorb the loss rather than the customer. On the other hand, If his car is worth 10,000 he would be best to hold out and negotiate a settlement with the responsible party. That's where I say it's important to have more info before going either direction.
The percentage thing is a matter of economics. If repair cost is 6500 and the agreed value is 7000, with a deduction of , say 1000 in salvage then Hagerty's loss would be 6000 to total the car vs repair. It's the same economic decision pretty much anybody would make. Most of us put more into these cars than we can ever get out of them, but that doesn't make sound business sense and insurance is a business.
Another issue is how familiar one is with how the system works and what is owed to them. Personally, I would take the responsible party to the mat to get the full market value or ACV of my TR3, then get the lowest salvage price I could get and then get the car repaired myself.
If the estimate on the car makes the repair possible, then all of this is a mute point.
 

hit_n_miss

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Before you have them on the phone, review in your mind how you will answer when they ask (and I am pretty sure they will ask) why you were on the road? &/or where were you going?

This could be a fairly important point depending on vehicle registration. In PA it says the following:
USE OF ANTIQUE, CLASSIC AND VINTAGE REGISTRATION PLATES
The use of antique, classic, and vintage registration plates is governed by Section 1340 of the Pennsylvania Vehicle Code, which states: “It is unlawful for any person to operate a motorcycle or vehicle with antique, classic, or vintage registration plates for general daily transportation. Permitted use shall be limited to participation in club activities, exhibits, tours, parades, occasional transportation and similar uses."
Occasional transportation and similar uses is defined as one day a week.

If, for example, an officer pulls you over, it's good to have a rehearsed story as to why you're on the road.
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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They would still only be on the hook for the ACV so Hagerty would have to absorb the loss rather than the customer.
I'll have to ask around, but I don't think that is right. "Agreed value" means that the agreed amount is the value, regardless of market conditions. It in effect recognizes that a concours restoration is a work of art and potentially worth much more than the same make and model "driver".
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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If, for example, an officer pulls you over, it's good to have a rehearsed story as to why you're on the road.

You're treading close to a line here. Insurance fraud, false statements to police. And anyone can read this forum. A much safer course is to buy the insurance you need, so you can tell the truth about why you're on the road.

But, "Out for a drive" is pretty much always safe, and always true. After all, it's still a drive, even if you're on your way home from work :smile:
 

Kleykamp

Jedi Trainee
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I'll have to ask around, but I don't think that is right. "Agreed value" means that the agreed amount is the value, regardless of market conditions. It in effect recognizes that a concours restoration is a work of art and potentially worth much more than the same make and model "driver".
Randall, that is correct...as far as the policy is concerned. A insurance policy is a contract between the customer and insurance company. If you and your insurance company "agree" to a value in the contract, then that becomes the value as far as the contract is concerned and ACV (actual cash value) or "market value" have nothing to do with the settlement. To muddy the waters some more, there is whats called a "Stated value" policy. You tell the company what you want for a stated value and they insure it for UP TO that amount, but the contract itself says that they will pay ACV UP TO that stated value, so it is of no real benefit to "state" the value. Policies will vary slightly from state to state, but generally the intent is the same. Just because you have a "agreed value" in the contract does not make that the value in concerns outside the parties to the contract. Financial responsibility laws require that you be responsible for the damaged persons "loss" . As you referred in an earlier post "make them whole". If they have a car with an ACV of 10,000 that is what the responsible party would owe reqardless of any outside contract you have with your own insurance company.
I'll defer to you every time on technical issues but, I've been around the block on the claim issues. Legal liability and contractual liability are two completely separate intities. His policy has no effect on what the responsible party owes.
As for the "making up" a story issue, when driving the car: That's a little more uncertain, but I agree with you totally. I read my Hagerty policy on this too. Their concern is more with (How Much) you drive the car than it is (Why) you drive the car. Normally they will ask how many miles you drive in a year and rate the policy for that number of miles. Mine is 5000. Some other policy might be more specific but Hagerty indicates several reasons why you would drive the car but they don't limit is to those specific reasons. They know that people take weekend drives or potentially use the car on a nice day to drive to work. As long as you are not driving 20K a year on something they've rated for 5K miles use, there is no need to make up a story. Again, some other policy might be more specific, but the only one I have to read is a Hagerty policy. Even the mileage issue is a grey area, because they don't come once a year and check your miles. Now, some states may have some restriction on classic or historical vehicle plates. I certainly don't know about each state, but those laws have nothing to do with what is in your insurance contract.
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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To muddy the waters some more, there is whats called a "Stated value" policy. You tell the company what you want for a stated value and they insure it for UP TO that amount, but the contract itself says that they will pay ACV UP TO that stated value, so it is of no real benefit to "state" the value.
That is actually the kind of insurance I carry on my Triumphs, and it suits me. I tell the insurance company the truth (I drive the car to work every day, when it is running and the weather is clear) and in return they treat me fairly when I have a loss.

The first time, the car was clearly totaled (bodyshop estimate was 1.5 times the stated value, and that didn't include fixing the frame). They pulled a set of "comps", meaning a list of similar cars that had sold recently (past year or two) and took the average of that. I had a chance to contest that (by supplying my own examples) but the amount was fair (IMO) and there was no point since it was over the stated value. So I got a check for the full SV, and kept the wrecked car for salvage. I didn't hear what they recovered from the other company, but I assume it was close to everything.

The second time, the car was worth repairing. Neither of us could find a body shop willing to give an estimate, so they made an offer (based on their appraisal) and I made a counteroffer based on the flat rate manual and current prices for new panels. My counteroffer was within about 4% of the SV, and after a few weeks to consider it, they sent me a check. I later heard that they recovered 98% from the other company (which I assume was inflated for my insurance company's costs, including towing, storage and appraisal).

The term "Actual Cash Value" normally includes an allowance for depreciation amortized across the useful lifetime of a product. Since our cars are far beyond their normal "useful lifetime", ACV doesn't really apply to them. So we need to operate on fair market value instead. But, FMV is much harder to determine, especially for a restored car. Hence, the agreed value is arguably the fair market value. Of course, they won't pay that willingly, but there is a good legal argument that it is the actual value. You're right "make you whole" is a vague term and the law doesn't say that specifically. But it is still the legal principle involved. If your car was a 100 point concours winning restoration, one owner with original black plates; then they need to pay you enough to buy another car like it. Not easy to do, and not particularly related to what a "driver" or "10 footer" will sell for.

But, I'm pretty sure the process of subrogation means that they (the other insurance company) get to pay your insurance company's actual losses due to their insured's negligence. That includes legal costs and so on, plus whatever they paid to you. https://www.irmi.com/online/insurance-glossary/terms/s/subrogation.aspx
 

Kleykamp

Jedi Trainee
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That is correct on subrogation. It's pretty much a SOP between insurers and they don't tend to disagree often. ACV and FMV are pretty much the same thing across the insurance industry although most policies will state ACV as "cost to replace with vehicle , less deduction for depreciation" or a vehicle of "like kind and quality". Conditioning factors in the depreciation. Since the older classic vehicles don't tend to depreciate, there is no basis for deduction. FMV is not really a term typically used in the insurance industry. It's more typically used by lawyers. Most insurance companies use a service such as CCC or ADP to value the vehicle. Both of those systems rely on the condition report as provided by an adjuster, and make adjustments based on how the subject vehicle differs in condition from the typical vehicle on the market. They were usually pretty accurate, and if anything, high more often than low on classic types. But, typical is a pretty wide range on TR3s. A concourse quality restoration example would require a great deal of research. As you know there are a lot of varying levels of "concourse quality restorations" out there....as evidenced by what shows up on ebay claiming to be that, but having glaring deficiencies in the quality department, i.e. black engine compartments, straight sheetmetal floor patches...and the list goes on. My car,a 61 TR3, is a amature,driver quality restoration, but I would put it up against a lot of the stuff I've seen advertised as concourse quality. But I've seen some REAL concourse restorations that would put my car to shame if they were sitting side by side. I think you and I agree that doing your homework, in any case, is the most important thing. It appears you did and came out OK.
 
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