• Hey Guest!
    British Car Forum has been supporting enthusiasts for over 25 years by providing a great place to share our love for British cars. You can support our efforts by upgrading your membership for less than the dues of most car clubs. There are some perks with a member upgrade!

    **Upgrade Now**
    (PS: Upgraded members don't see this banner, nor will you see the Google ads that appear on the site.)
Tips
Tips

Ethanol may not be "Green"

Brooklands

Yoda
Silver
Country flag
Offline
Ethanol may not be "Green"

I just read this interesting item in the Hemming's weekly update:

"Environmental lawsuits block ethanol expansion
So let’s get this straight: Ethanol is supposed to be the gasoline replacement that eases our oil imports and pays a dividend for the American farmer, while at the same time yielding environmental benefits from a cleaner, renewable fuel, right? So why are environmental groups around the country suing to halt construction of ethanol-producing facilities? If you haven’t learned by now that things that sound too good to be true are too good to be true, I’d like to talk about how you can make millions selling real estate without a single dollar down... but that’s another matter.

Now that the bloom is off the corn fuel, er, flower, some hard truths are emerging. By now, you probably know about speculation and wild fluctuations in grain futures, about pork-barrel projects, and about questions of how much energy goes into ethanol production in the first place. What you may not have heard about is the strain that the 140 or so existing ethanol plants place on local infrastructure.

When US Envirofuels began the permitting process for Florida’s first ethanol plant in Tampa, the city put their plans on hold when it emerged that the facility would require 400,000 gallons of water per day to operate — far more than the drought-stricken municipality can safely supply.

Tampa shouldn’t have been surprised, though. In Missouri, Gulfstream Bioflex Energy’s plans to build a plant near Fordlands has run into a lawsuit by the local Citizens for Groundwater Protection, over Gulfstream’s plans to draw over 1.3 million gallons a day from the depleted Ozark aquifer. Missouri water rights currently allow anyone to use as much as they desire.

Similar legal battles are being fought in Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas and Illinois. “Green,” it turns out, is a matter of perspective.
- By David Traver Adolphus"

The entire newsletter can be found here.

I have not been a fan of this option in the past, but had not heard about the water usage problem before. Another case of jumping in too soon?
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Brooklands said:
I have not been a fan of this option in the past, but had not heard about the water usage problem before. Another case of jumping in too soon?

Yup, Many environmental folk have been saying this for a while now. Also as more corn is grown, you are placing more demand on water sources, "burning" up the soil (a disaster waiting to happen), and increasing runoff into water which create myriad issues (most notably deadzones).

We would do better if every car out there got 10mpg more. That would mean cars are going to have to drop weight, A LOT, and no more 0-60 in 6 seconds for every vehicle out there.

Most of your smaller carburated cars in the 70's and 80's would easily knock out 40+mpg.
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Yup!!

The science is clear on this one.
Ethanol is a disaster now happening.

So is the hog farm industry but it gets
little press.

d
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Also in some cases it takes more than the energy equivelent of a gallon of ethonol (diesel for farm equipment, transportation to the plant, and electricity usage at the plant, etc) to produce the gallon of ethonol. Subsidies on ethonol production and farm subsidies to corn farmers can turn the economics on their head.

Rob.
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Tinster said:
Yup!!

The science is clear on this one.
Ethanol is a disaster now happening.

It has NEVER made sense to me. But I'm just one poor, dumb schlub drivin' around in thirty and forty year old four-bangers. What th' Hades would I know.
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Just goes to show what a powerful lobbying group can accomplish!!
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

It also takes 16 to 24 inches of water to grow corn throughout the season. That is a lot of water. Not to mention the heavy use of nitrogen and phosphorous fertilizer.

I will become a believer in this technology when the ethanol plants are run from their own output and still produce a product.
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Well, ethanol is no magic bullet, but we would make a mistake if we analyzed ethanol potential based solely on the current means by which it is usually obtained.

Cellulosic ethanol, from grasses and wood waste, or in fact grain waste may be much, much more efficient and may in fact be environmentally and economically sound.
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 17pt">fuel cells, fuel cells, fuel cells !!!!</span></span>
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Tinster said:
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 17pt">fuel cells, fuel cells, fuel cells !!!!</span></span>

or..

1800lb cars with 1200cc engines.

.. at least for the time being
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

How 'bout 1500 lb. cars with 1600cc engines? :devilgrin: :smirk:
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Pond algae are efficient producers of hydrogen and they are only one simple source for the most abundant stuff in the universe, and it burns cleanly and efficiently and more safely than gasoline!!! (But I STILL <span style="text-decoration: underline">LOVE</span> my little 1200cc 1500lb. car!!!)
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

New Zealand is investigating extracting the stuff from the waste materials left over by the process of making pulp and paper. And putting the plant on the same site as the mill.Of course,the economics may not make this viable.

Stuart. :cheers:
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

"yet".
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Wanna know how to make alcohol efficently? Ask a moonshiner :lol:

I would love to comment here, some of what I think about ethanol production has already been stated. The rest would endulge in my political opinion, so I guess `nough said!
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Aaaaah! The politics of being fuelish!! :devilgrin:
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

Well, we had to start somewhere. I have never seen anybody get it right the first time. I don't know if ethanol is a sinner or a saint but I do believe we have to start somewhere.
grin.gif
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

I agree 1000%. Oil was not all that economically feasible as a fuel when it was discovered.
 
Re: Ethanol may not be "Green"

And another thing...(I always wanted a radio program named that...but I digress)

-E85 or ethanol may be usable in standard gasoline engine with just adjusting the richness of the mix, but it is not at its best in that situation. If an engine were built specifically for ethanol with a much higher compression ratio to take advantage of the high octane, we would see a substantial narrowing in the power gap between gasoline and ethanol.

The issue there is that for the time being, any engine that runs ethanol must run well on gasoline as well. How to solve this quandry? I'm thinking variable boost turbo or superchargers which sense the ethanol content and kick up the boost accordingly- maybe variable valve timimg running a Miller-Cycle for gas and an Otto cycle on ethanol....smarter people than me are working on it.

Is it any greener than gasoline? Darned if I know, but anything that makes oil less of the driving force behind....everything, is worth looking at.
 
Back
Top