Spitfire Crank Journal Size for Spitfires

[hondo402000]

I was always told to always check all clearances on bearing journals even if you trust the shop if you are building your engine yourself, cause you never know if a something got switched up some where. when I rebuilt my first engine back in the 80's I didnt check anything just assumed they knew what they were doing, all went well but I guess I got lucky. but the guys that checked my crank and balanced it also purchased the main bearings and installed them too. when I got the block back the pistons were installed and all bearings were in place.

Hondo

 

[UmmYeahOk]

OK with that being said, you still need to get someone more experienced than you all to measure the crank, you may be right on the money, but a second opinion will not hurt.

Well thats the problem. We've got a car that belongs to a young woman whos previous work includes cartoons and coloring (no joke) and whos never driven a carburetor car in her life. Then youve got my husband whos a 100% computer guy. What do we know? Then youve got the 50,000 shops in DFW, all claiming to be certified in this or that. "professionals" "experienced" Yet for some reason, I feel that many of them dont take anything seriously. Like you cant go next door and use someone else. Problem is, that someone else also feels and behaves the exact same way. Whats this world coming to? Its almost as if the belief in the industry is, "you can to me for help, thats means you clearly have no concept on how to change your own oil, and so on." ...pretty sad.

Then theres the REAL experience professionals. Theyre the ones that still do business, but dont exactly go looking for it. Theyre a bunch of old guys who have been working on cars their whole life in the 50s, 60s, and earlier. You go to them for service and they'll turn you away. Theyre psuedo-retired. Theyre working, just dont want more than one project. But if you say "So&so told me you were the best, or So&so is my cousin and recommended you." then and only then, will they see you.

you might have to put your block on a palet and ship it off to someone that actually works on British cars.

Cant trust anyone in the biz. It sounds like Hap knows his stuff, and yeah, Id trust him, but theres a british leyland dealer/shop nearby, which actually is where I saw my very first GT6. Well, it seems that this other GT6 owner that I met thanks to this crank fiasco took one of his triumphs there. The guy kept it for a year and didnt do anything with it! The the other thing. If they know its not your daily driver, they sit on it. They assume youre a checkbook restorer, and have no time limit.

Maybe a trip to Kip Motors in the Dallas area would be worth while, aleast Kip could recommend a good machinist

I'll keep them in mind. Thanks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] but I'm still not getting the cracked main cap deal, that would take some effort to do, was the crank binding once torqued down with bearings and it was forced to turn over by hand, was the main caps installed in the correct orientation, sorry it's just not all adding up for me, lots of gaps in the info. What was the markings on the bearings? Did I understand it to be all of the main caps or just one? [/QUOTE]

Well from what I remember, they were placed correctly, or appeared to be, with that groove seated just so. Then my husband torqued them down to spec. He heard a pop noise, and assumed that was the sound it made when properly seated, especially since they all made the same noise. Unfortunately that "pop" was the main caps cracking. Since the plastigauge didnt smash at all, he later ended up over torquing them I think. I remember him saying 60, and that I told him the book says 50-55 (even though I think the book is for the pre KC5000). Didnt matter though, because even torqued to 60, the plastigauge still didnt press, but the bearing sides did. Like a penny on a rail road track. Hes installed new bearings in my 94 mustang without any issue, so Im pretty sure he knows what he was doing. Then again, my experience is, it doesnt matter how many times youve done something, if its my car, it will be wrong =)

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Ok, so I called up my shop and asked if they had a ball mic. They said they did, then I asked if they could measure my crank for me. They do the deal where they say they need to talk to someone and will call me back. I tell them, but you guys always say that and never call me back. But I gave them my number anyway. Surprisingly after 5 minutes, they call me back! I learn that the crank and block are all back there at the shop, and has been there waiting for me to give them new main caps (I knew they would need new ones since march, but it would have been nice if they had told me)

Anyway, so since its been established that 1) they have a ball mic and 2) the crank is there, I ask them if they could measure my crank for me, since thats what I asked for earlier today, in emails, and numerous trips and calls months before. He says that the machine shop already did. But of course they avoid actually telling me so I ask again that since they have the tool, and the crank there, if they could measure again, and give me the specs. He says some other guy will have to do it.

So, it looks like tomorrow I will have to drive half an hour to the shop, and force them to measure. Its like the only way I can get anything ever from them is by going over there and sitting in their waiting area until theyre forced to deal with me. The trick is to go an hour before they close because they know they cant leave until they have atleast talked with me. Oh and dont worry. Theyre not hurt for business. Theres a reason 90% of the shops here behave the way they do... ...they can afford to. They have TOO MUCH business.

 

[TR3driver]

Where can I get an affordable ball mic?

The ball mic is needed only for trying to measure the inserts; the crank can be measured with an ordinary micrometer. And for only occasional use, you can get by using a bearing ball and standard mic for concave surfaces (like the inside of the insert). You just measure the ball, then measure the ball plus the item of interest, and subtract the ball dimension from the overall measurement. Takes a little bit of coordination to hold the ball in place while you tighten the mic, but it's not too difficult.

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Emailed KIP Motors almost a week ago. All I asked was if they knew where I could get new main caps for my engine. I dont know why shops even advertise their email addresses if they have not intention of answering them.

Where can I get an affordable ball mic?

The ball mic is needed only for trying to measure the inserts; the crank can be measured with an ordinary micrometer. And for only occasional use, you can get by using a bearing ball and standard mic for concave surfaces (like the inside of the insert). You just measure the ball, then measure the ball plus the item of interest, and subtract the ball dimension from the overall measurement. Takes a little bit of coordination to hold the ball in place while you tighten the mic, but it's not too difficult.

But in my old "Bearing Nightmare" thread, several people swore that you needed to use a ball mic, even Hap here said you did, because a micrometer will give you different measurements.

So anyway, since they said they had my stuff there and a ball mic, I show up Thursday. They assume Im there to pick up my stuff. I tell them that I was there to measure the crank since I was told that they had a ball mic. He leaves and comes back with a tool... ...guess what the tool is? A MICROMETER! I ask him where the ball mic is, since the micrometer doesnt accurately read (as stated by Hap, and practically everyone else in a previous thread of mine) He says that they DONT HAVE ONE! Anyway, he measures one journal and gets 2.306, which is WAY WAY different from what I got! I explain to him how .010 off should make it in between 2.3010"-2.3015" and by having it oversize it caused the .010 bearings to buckle and cracked the main caps. He measures again and gets 2.309, which is practically close to the original! Again, these are no where near the measurements I got with my micrometer.

So I ask if I could have a refund on the crank work, since it was turned in October and still we've made no progress. He gets the owner and he talks to us. He starts defending the shop he uses since all the dime a dozen domestic cranks his given them never have any problems, and starts talking about how we dont know what we are doing and how its out fault for not measuring first, blah blah blah, even though I repeatedly told him that Im not blaming his business since they didnt turn it, the shop they dont want to tell me the name of did, and 2) even if we had THEM, the experienced professional engine builders, build my engine... ...THEY DONT EVEN HAVE A BALL MIC!!!! I ask if they could at least turn it to the spec I paid for, since they arent going to give my a refund, but my husband points out in front of the owner and assistant how theres no point since 1) I cant use the block anymore without caps and 2) they'll just keep it for months, and we'd keep having to go over there and measure it until its done right, if ever. Anyway, after my husband loads the engine block in the trunk of his car BY HIMSELF, the boss FINALLY tells me what shop they used to turn the crank. However so much time has gone by, and so much effort was given to the first shop, that I dont know if I should just give up the fight. Especially since my husband pointed out that a numbers matching engine doesnt increase the value of these cars. I mean a perfectly restored one goes for $10,000-$15,000.

<<<<<<OFF TOPIC - MAINLY JUST NEED TO RANT>>>>>>>

I hate that shop so much! They are so freaking busy, why do they need to LIE to get MORE business they cant even handle. We totally hotrodded my mustang. Being a 90's car, it uses a computer. We had a "piggyback" performance chip that we tuned with a lap top. Problem was, it would randomly shut off, and the car would stall. The chip was used, and an antique as computer parts go. We needed someone to tune it for us. Out of the thousands of tuner shops out there one shop had the tool, but not the person. One had the person but not the tool. So we take my car to a place called HPP which specializes in mustangs. They tell us, sure they can make it work, only they cant see us until 2 months later, since theyre scheduled that far. Problem is, this was my daily driver.

They freakin LIED. Making it work means they remove the chip and install an SCT chip which ANY tuner shop with a dyno can do.

So my car cant pass emissions. My husband goes there and waits SEVEN HOURS for them to squeeze him in. They say they can make it pass, no problem. This involves installing a switch in the chip to run the performance program and the emissions program, only they have no sniffer!!!! Guess what? didn't pass, didn't even come close. Turns out, it needed new cats, but still, DONT TELL ME YOU CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN IF YOU CANT!

My car suddenly dies right in the middle of driving it. From then on it starts driving very rough. Naturally I assume its the chip and again take it back to them. It wasnt the chip, it was some external computer do-hickey, not the ECU. So they got it working again, but they somehow broke my security alarm speaker (now dangles on a wire) and my engine wont stop spraying coolant everywhere! (they moved a sensor)

While Im there I ask if they knew anyone that could turn a crank. What a surprise that THEY CAN DO IT!!!! Which actually means they'll send it to someone who does. The crank just happened to be in the car, so it sounded worth it. They make everything they do sound like a favor, so you pretty much agree to anything they want to do.

It just sucks because this whole mess started because they said they could get my chip to work. I could have used anyone else. I would have used a shelby authorized and licensed shop tune my car, but I turned them down because they said they didnt have the tool. But Im sure they have a drawer full of SCT chips.

Sorry, I just needed to rant

 

[poolboy]

Bad Carma.

 

[TR3driver]

But in my old "Bearing Nightmare" thread, several people swore that you needed to use a ball mic, even Hap here said you did, because a micrometer will give you different measurements.

I didn't remember that, so I just re-read the "Bearing Nightmare" thread. No mention of a ball mic that I could find; only a discussion of micrometer vs digital caliper.

Anyone that can't get readings with a mic that are consistent to a few .0001" is NOT doing it right, and should not be trusted to operate ANY precision measuring device, IMO. It does take some care to do it right, but any HS student should be able to learn.

However, it is quite appropriate to take several different measurements at different points. Any variation indicates the journal was not ground properly.

Sorry about your woes with the chip; but it's unfortunately true that when you start breaking the law (it's a violation of Federal law to install such a thing on any car new enough to take one), the folks you deal with tend to be crooks. A better way to deal, IMO, is to just put back the stock chip to pass the sniffer test (so if it fails, the problem is clearly NOT the chip).

I would be really surprised if anyone even makes new main caps. They are not interchangeable, except as roughly machined blanks that get finish machined after being bolted to your block (line boring). Most likely, you'll have to settle for used caps from some other engine (which of course will also have to be line bored while bolted to your block).

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Bad Carma.

That would involve me doing something bad. Thats kinda how it works. Do something bad, something bad will happen to you. Do something good, and good things will happen. At least thats what Carson Daly says. In fact, I wouldnt even have this car if it werent for a whole string of bad luck to come my way. Im pretty sure I havent done anything wrong. I dont even litter.

I just have bad luck with every automotive "professional" I come in contact with. But perhaps "Carma" operates under different rules than "Karma."

But in my old "Bearing Nightmare" thread, several people swore that you needed to use a ball mic, even Hap here said you did, because a micrometer will give you different measurements.

I didn't remember that, so I just re-read the "Bearing Nightmare" thread. No mention of a ball mic that I could find; only a discussion of micrometer vs digital caliper.

Sorry, I thought "ball mic" was the same thing as a "micrometer." Whatever they used, it was the same tool that we had, which I guess is a digital caliber, even though people confuse it with a micrometer.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Sorry about your woes with the chip; but it's unfortunately true that when you start breaking the law (it's a violation of Federal law to install such a thing on any car new enough to take one), the folks you deal with tend to be crooks. A better way to deal, IMO, is to just put back the stock chip to pass the sniffer test (so if it fails, the problem is clearly NOT the chip).[/QUOTE]

Didnt know the law was on a federal level. Sounds like some California bull to me. People install chips on daily drivers all the time here. Thats why there are so many shops.

I tried to get the car exempt since, even though its daily driven, its doesnt drive more than 5,000 miles a year, and I had spent more than the govts minimum in repairing it. I showed them receipts of my exhaust work, chips, headers, even brought in the old headers which showed how badly they leaked (dont ever buy seconds) and even the test results showing how each modification had help the emissions a lot. He just passed them off claiming that they were safety repairs, not emissions, even thought the results proved it, and I had no problem passing the safety portion of the test. Anyway, what Im getting at is that being a government inspector of failing cars, I would think he would tell me the chips illegal, if it were.

Then again, they only started testing for emissions in my county 8 years ago. Had the same car then too. I dont find it fair how theres gas guzzler taxes on cars, but not soccer mom mobiles. Then again, this is the same govt that had tax incentives on 12mpg Mexico/Canada made hybrids, when there are tons of 36mpg+ non hybrids, TRUE domestics that didnt.

Anyway, no chip was not the answer because we have a switch installed, the switch will let the engine run under the original factory settings, or under the tune. Under factory settings the car failed miserably. With the chip it improved a lot, but still no where near passing. "Guaranteed To Pass" also helped a ton, but still no where near needed. The fault is the idiot who spent $500 on a catted X pipe, only to gut out the cats, when for $100, you could just buy a catless x pipe. Would have been nice if he had told me they were gutted when he sold it to me.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

A ball mic has a round face on it, so it can measure round or circular things.

 

[TR3driver]

Sorry, I thought "ball mic" was the same thing as a "micrometer." Whatever they used, it was the same tool that we had, which I guess is a digital caliber, even though people confuse it with a micrometer.

Ball anvil micrometer (aka "ball mic"):

'Regular' vernier mic:

Digital caliper:

And as I said before (and you've now seen for yourself), calipers aren't good enough to check that a crank journal was ground properly or is worn undersize.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Didnt know the law was on a federal level. [/QUOTE]It is Texas state law https://www.tceq.state.tx.us/implementation/air/mobilesource/vetech/tampering.html
as well as federal https://itep68.itep.nau.edu/itep_download...ionControls.pdf

The "chip" is part of the emissions control design.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]People install chips on daily drivers all the time here.[/QUOTE]People exceed the speed limit a lot too; but it's still against the law.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Anyway, what Im getting at is that being a government inspector of failing cars, I would think he would tell me the chips illegal, if it were. [/QUOTE]Sounds to me like he was trying to give you a break; turning a blind eye to illegal modifications (likely the headers are illegal as well) as long as you can make the computerized sniffer test pass. Generally, the guy doing the test doesn't <span style="font-weight: bold">want</span> you to fail, and some of them will do everything they can to get your car to pass. I've even seen them "accidentally" stick the sniffer up the wrong tailpipe!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] TRUE domestics [/QUOTE]Best I can tell, there are no true domestic cars any more. They might assemble the parts here (as do Toyota, Honda, Subaru, etc), but most of the parts are always made in Canada, Mexico or overseas.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Anyway, no chip was not the answer[/QUOTE]Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that using the stock chip would make it pass; only that it would let you (and the inspector) focus on what the real problems are.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] because we have a switch installed, the switch will let the engine run under the original factory settings, [/QUOTE]Only if your aftermarket chip actually copied the correct factory settings. From what I've read, they rarely get them just right.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Would have been nice if he had told me they were gutted when he sold it to me. [/QUOTE]
It's a funny thing; seems to me that most sellers are reluctant to tell you of the thousands of dollars you will have to spend in order to get the car registered :laugh:

 

[swift6]

Randall is correct about it being a Federal law, but a law is only as good as its enforcement and the feds are doing practically zero enforcement of emissions laws on private individuals. The EPA tells the states where they should be and leaves it up to the individual states to develop and enforce there own specific emissions programs. At one time the feds did some serious enforcement, but not anymore.

Not all headers are illegal. If they have the same emissions hookups as an original exhaust manifold they are generally legal. Shorty headers are designed to have cats bolted to them and if the car required/came with air injection into the exhaust manifold and the headers are also plumbed for air injection there is no issue.

Chips can be illegal, but also could be completely legal. Some even Cary C.A.R.B. compliance numbers, even though that does not technically make them 50 state legal, its a large step toward it. It all depends on how it changes the cars programing. The chip writers have gotten a whole lot better over the last decade and can not only provide increased performance but also able to breeze through emissions testing. Change the chip on a car under warranty and the dealer can void the whole warranty if they find it so some caution should still be exercised.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

A ball mic would be use to measure the bearing shell thickness, not the crankshaft journal, and I'm still trying to fiquire out how crank journal smaller than spec would crack main caps. Crankshaft are ground undersize, and the number you have posted here are under the .010" unsize spec range, so that would mean you have more clearnce than needed, so how exactly would that cause a interference, and crack a main caps.

Answer me a simple question, waht do the bearing shell have printed on the back of them, and where were they sourced, and who sourced them you or the machine shop?

Here's the problem for me on this entire thread, is all through this thread it seems you are looking to blame someone for this, and maybe you have someone to blame, but the data you are giving us is incomplete, so we can't exactly help you, if we don't know all the facts, and at the end of the day the person that is neglect could very well be the one staring back at you in the mirror, and you should make real sure of the mistake before you point fingers at someone else.

NEWS FLASH, no one makes new main caps for these engine, so you wasting your time calling around trying to find new main caps, the only way you can a set of main caps is from another block, and then your block would have to line bored to use them and at that point it would be smarter to just use the block the main caps from to start with.


Nothing you stated here, leads me to beleive the machine shop caused your main caps to crack. When there are huge gaps in a story, I tend to look closer at the story teller.

 

[UmmYeahOk]

And as I said before (and you've now seen for yourself), calipers aren't good enough to check that a crank journal was ground properly or is worn undersize.

Ok, so both us and the shop used digital calipers, so I guess, even though they BUILD engines, they apparently dont have a micrometer. I measured again when I got home, and several times I got 2.29X on all of them except one, which was 2.301-5 roughly around there.

A ball mic would be use to measure the bearing shell thickness, not the crankshaft journal, and I'm still trying to fiquire out how crank journal smaller than spec would crack main caps. Crankshaft are ground undersize, and the number you have posted here are under the .010" unsize spec range, so that would mean you have more clearnce than needed, so how exactly would that cause a interference, and crack a main caps

Yeah, so it would show that they are smaller now than when they left. For all I know it was turned again, but then again, like its been established, you get a different measurement each time, but this time I did try several times on each main. But the performance shop still got 2.306 and 2.309 when they measured. Its a shame that they couldn't get the specs from the machine shops like I asked them and had to bring the crank and block to them on two separate trips for them to do.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]It is Texas state law https://www.tceq.state.tx.us/implementation/air/mobilesource/vetech/tampering.html
as well as federal https://itep68.itep.nau.edu/itep_download...ionControls.pdf

The "chip" is part of the emissions control design.[/QUOTE]

Well, according to that, every foose, roush, salleen, shelby, whatever mustang is ILLEGAL. They never left the ford factory like that. That also means that every dealer that sells them, is selling illegal cars. Then again, many of them sell cars without front license plates, or hide the plate with their dealer logo, so technically all of those are illegal too.

Im pretty sure my car could never be registered in California. But when you have an 86 block, 93 intake, 2001 heads from a ford explorer, with a 1994 ECU, youre gonna have to have a chip to make it all work

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] Generally, the guy doing the test doesn't <span style="font-weight: bold">want</span> you to fail, and some of them will do everything they can to get your car to pass. I've even seen them "accidentally" stick the sniffer up the wrong tailpipe![/QUOTE] Yeah, the good awesome shop that discovered and fixed my failing car for way under what I think it would normally cost, found a way to get my rear brake rotors to glow while testing it.

Its sad, the "good" shops I recommend people to, still have also done at least one thing that I disagree with. Will I use them again? yeah. It has come to this. Wont take it to the kwik kar anymore to get tested. You pretty much have to have a list of bad deeds to get on my "do not use" list.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Best I can tell, there are no true domestic cars any more. They might assemble the parts here (as do Toyota, Honda, Subaru, etc), but most of the parts are always made in Canada, Mexico or overseas.[/QUOTE]
Well, I never believed in the whole "IMPORTS SUCK" mentality. I know that there are many hondas and toyotas made here using an american work force. But I see so many GM cars that are from Canada and Mexico. IMO, if the assembly plant isnt in the US, it isnt a domestic. My mustang was assembled in Michigan. Whats from a different country isnt stock. A Chevy Suburban, or a Pontiac Transam (newer) is NOT a domestic. I wont actually call a honda a domestic either, but if I see the owner of a canadian camaro wearing an "imports suck" t shirt, Im going to wonder what his problem is

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]It's a funny thing; seems to me that most sellers are reluctant to tell you of the thousands of dollars you will have to spend in order to get the car registered :laugh:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I bought some rims that had been in a fire. I was told this. The seller was honest. Only the front driver side tire would always have a slow leak, that occasionally would leave me stranded. I had to air it up every month. Discount tire told me that rechroming them would fix it. But I didnt want to invest so much money on something like that when I could buy rims I really wanted. I figured that since the car had frame damage, misaligned, RWD offset, and a 6 cylinder, the rims were probably fine on the jetta they came off of. But I still had to be honest when selling them. No one was interested. I kept them for a year and no one was interested. I almost recycled them (which was what I should have done) when I gave them to my neighbor including all the paperwork. He turned around and tried selling them for exactly what I paid for (since he had the ebay print out), and claimed they were a different brand than I told him because I reused the boxes from my old ones. Never once did he mention the issue I had with them to potential buyers. I later found the ebay papers stating the fire damage in my back yard. No wonder no one on the street likes him.

Not all headers are illegal. If they have the same emissions hookups as an original exhaust manifold they are generally legal. Shorty headers are designed to have cats bolted to them and if the car required/came with air injection into the exhaust manifold and the headers are also plumbed for air injection there is no issue.

Well, these are shorty headers. I was doing a v8 swap, so I got whatever. I think theyre is supposed to be some extra piping as my smog pump doesnt go anywhere, and Ive seen some with some sort of connector on the headers themself that mine dont have. Ive also seen some emissions looking piping that runs into the back of one of the heads, but being a mismatched engine from different years, theres no way for such piping to be connected..

I just know that my V6 had 4 cats, and 4 o2 sensors, and my v8 has 2 cats and 2 sensors. I would think it should be the other way around, but go figure. I just know my old headers leaked so badly, it was almost as if there was no gasket at all!

I show my mustang often at local car shows. Many of the local police have looked at my gift horse in the mouth. Theyve seen what it has and what it lacks. Theyve also seen a nice little list of things right beside it stating all the "illegal" mods done to it. Despite being a flashy red convertible, it never gets pulled over. Even though it hasnt had a front plate since 1998. But they sure will harass my husband and brother for not having one

Change the chip on a car under warranty and the dealer can void the whole warranty if they find it so some caution should still be exercised.

I will never own a new car. My car was $20k brand new. When I got it 4 years later, current body style, it was $7k. I cant believe how fast a car can depreciate. And all used cars are sold As Is. I know a guy with worse luck than me who bought a car, and it blew a gasket on the way home. Dealer refused to give him a refund, claimed it was user error.

Besides, Ive already been to two dealerships to get service for two vehicles that arent mine. Lets not go into how they cant be trusted for repairs either, unless you just want to hear more stories about I can never trust my car with someone else.

Anyway, new cars are so bad with their warranties, anything from a cold air intake to an after market cd changer will void the warranty. Ive even heard of brand reps visiting motorsport events, writing down peoples plates and VINs, so that if they come back with a problem, they can refuse service. I wonder how much money theyve wasted paying those people. Its sad too, because in most cases these were cars advertised to do all the things these racers are doing (lancers, STIs, etc). Thats like voiding warranties on trucks that go off road, or haul stuff.

A ball mic would be use to measure the bearing shell thickness, not the crankshaft journal, and I'm still trying to fiquire out how crank journal smaller than spec would crack main caps. Crankshaft are ground undersize, and the number you have posted here are under the .010" unsize spec range, so that would mean you have more clearnce than needed, so how exactly would that cause a interference, and crack a main caps

Thats why I was hoping the machine shop would tell me the true specs, or the performance shop had a ball mic, because I dont understand either. Thats also why I originally wondered if the original specs were different from spits. All the main caps were numbered and installed in order

Answer me a simple question, waht do the bearing shell have printed on the back of them, and where were they sourced, and who sourced them you or the machine shop?

I will have to go look. I got them from Victoria British. They were back ordered for a while. When they came, there was no brand, just a VB part number and the words "Made in Israel" I dont recall anything printed on them, but I'll look again tomorrow. The machine shop told the performance shop that the bearings were wrong, and that they could get the right ones, but 1) I dont see how that would help without main caps, since the ones purchased seem to fit fine until torqued, 2) I dont know where they plan on getting them, odds are, they're going to find the same israeli ones and charge 4 times more for them. and 3) we brought them one good bearing, the original, along with all the .010 smashed ones. I am assuming they took one look at the original bearings and assumed that we used THOSE instead of .010. There seems to be A LOT of miscommunication going around.

Here's the problem for me on this entire thread, is all through this thread it seems you are looking to blame someone for this, and maybe you have someone to blame, but the data you are giving us is incomplete, so we can't exactly help you, if we don't know all the facts, and at the end of the day the person that is neglect could very well be the one staring back at you in the mirror, and you should make real sure of the mistake before you point fingers at someone else.

Nothing you stated here, leads me to beleive the machine shop caused your main caps to crack. When there are huge gaps in a story, I tend to look closer at the story teller.

This is the original thread containg the whole story, that I mentioned to someone earlier. Richter12x2 is my husband. Since he was the one installing the bearings, he gets angered rather quickly if you see him posting something that you disagree with.
https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/655712/1

Honestly, this journal size thread shouldnt have strayed this way. I usually just update the linked thread. But thats ok, I dont mind that thread dying since it seems to just repeat itself whenever it gets bumped.

NEWS FLASH, no one makes new main caps for these engine, so you wasting your time calling around trying to find new main caps, the only way you can a set of main caps is from another block, and then your block would have to line bored to use them

I know that. But Im sure a skillful person can machine new ones, they have to be line bored anyway. I keep hearing stories of Model T owners discovering that their car had been running decades on wooden pistons. Im not saying widdleling wood is the answer, Im just saying manufacturing new ones is possible, though VERY expensive.

The other thing is by saying "I need NEW ones." I mean "I need caps that arent my OLD ones" Finding 43yo caps are new, if they are new to that engine. I have an 86 motor in my 94 mustang. I have a NEW engine, because my OLD one wasnt a V8... ...simple miscommunication.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]at that point it would be smarter to just use the block the main caps from to start with. [/QUOTE]

On a 1967 triumph gt6? yes On a 1967 shelby mustang? no. You see, mint, the cars worth $15k if youre VERY lucky. However cars that value over $100k are only valued so high when they are numbers matching. If theyre not numbers matching, then they lose value. And who knows. I had planned on keeping it for several decades, that value may raise. I guess I'll just have to keep the block with me just in case that happens.

But for someone who was hoping to own a numbers matching frame off restored rare classic sports car, regardless of what the resell value is, it hurts knowing that the car has now been devalued somewhat. Like its no longer special. Im not sure what defines a "survivor" but its like a part of it died. Like, no matter what engine you put in it, it will never have its original soul. I know that may sound silly, but some car enthusiasts feel the same way.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

There again, no new data, except to tell me you bought the cheapest bearings offered for these cars. What you have is King bi metal bearing, I tend to use tri metal bearings in these cars since that is what the factory used and a far superior product. The issue with bi metal bearings is they don't seem to last as long as tri metal bearing in these cars.

And once again, extra clearence does ot equate to a interference issue ith the main caps.

Yes I used aftermarket main caps in a 1500 race engines before, the customer supplied them, they were a big PITA to get them centered in the block, to line bore the block. So if you source main caps for your existing block, aftermarket or stock, you will have to line bore the block.

Once again, nothing said here indicates that the machine shop grinding your crank caused your main caps to crack.

Wooden pistons, thats truely is funny, they should hold up well to the 1200 to 1400 degrees that a cylinder makes when ignition happen, ought to smell like a campfire going down the road, for a block or two anyway

I have to admit, I found this thread somewhat entertaining.

I often tell folks whan they call me wanting advice, do they really want advice or conformation of what they think is correct, whether it is or not. This thread is alot like that, you would like for us to just agree with you, whether we do or not.

As for your GT6, this is not Barret Jackson, not many of these cars are worth more than we spend restoring them, so getting a replacment block with good main caps will not effect your cars value. Your cars is like alot of our cars, you spend $20K+ restoring a $15K car, this hobby has never been about these car's value, it value is measured in the enjoyment we have working on and driving these cars. I seen Big Healeys bring $60-75K at auctions like RL, RM and Barret Jackson, knowing good and well the restoration cost of those cars was a good $50K above what the auction price was, and thats probably the case with 90% of all the cars auctioned on those places, rich people tired of the classic car, wanting to move on to something else. You have a neat car in a GT6, but it's not a Buggatti or a Pierce Arrow.

 

[swift6]

Well, according to that, every foose, roush, salleen, shelby, whatever mustang is ILLEGAL. They never left the ford factory like that. That also means that every dealer that sells them, is selling illegal cars.

Actually, you'll find that those companies listed above are either registered as independent 'manufacturers' or so closely aligned with the original manufacturers that, in this case Ford, actually pays for the testing/certification of these particular 'tuner' models. Much like any Ford SVO, SVT models. M Division from BMW, DINAN for aftermarket BMW, AMG versions of Mercedes etc... Those companies also have to meet federal guidelines for the products they manufacture.

I show my mustang often at local car shows. Many of the local police have looked at my gift horse in the mouth. Theyve seen what it has and what it lacks. Theyve also seen a nice little list of things right beside it stating all the "illegal" mods done to it.

In most states the Police do not do the enforcing of emissions laws. It is usally the particular states Department of Revenue that governs and enforces emissions laws. Most states rely on voluntary compliance in order to register a vehicle.

 

[DrEntropy]

In most states the Police do not do the enforcing of emissions laws. It is usually the particular states Department of Revenue that governs and enforces emissions laws. Most states rely on voluntary compliance in order to register a vehicle.

"Uh-huh, uh-huh, I LIKE it...

That's th' way I LIKE it..."


:smirk:

 

[Richter12x2]

Ok, here's what I have right out of the bearing book

(Standard Motor Co./Triumph) GT6 Mks I II III
1998cc
2498cc

rod shaft size 1.8750"-1.8755"
rod housing bore 2.0210"-2.0215"
STD. bearing shell thickness .072"

Main shaft size 2.3110"-2.3115"
main housing bore 2.4570"-2.4575"
STD. main bearing shell thickness.072"

Remember if you are measuring bearing shell thickness for clearnece purposes, then it needs to be done with a ball mic, and for the undersize bearings, half the undsize added to each bearing shell from standard thickness, say for example a .010" under size bearing you would add .005" to each bearing thickness, so a .010" under bearing shell would measure .072" + .005" = .077"


FWIW, both the Spitfire 1296 and 1500 large journal engines are exactly the same sizes at the GT6, the earlier small journal 1296 and 1147 engines had smaller numbers.

Hopes this helps.

Thank you sir, this is what we needed. After obtaining the Heritage certificate (recently), it confirms that the engine that was ruined is the correct one for the car. I've located a set of main bearing caps, and we're having a trusted engine builder here locally do the work for us, and this is information that we desperately needed since the workshop manual is wrong, and nothing I've been able to find on the Internet seems to have this information.

To address the rest of the opinion and speculation in this thread, if we were millionaires, we'd have 3 different machine shops give opinions, cross check each others' work and get sworn affidavits that it was all done to best of their ability, with a bond. But then noone would want to do the work. Even the engine builder that has agreed to do the work finally tried to turn us away at the door when he saw that we didn't have a domestic block, luckily he's built a few race engines for my wife's cousin, and that bought us a little leeway.

Again, if we were millionaires, I would pay almost $1000 freight both ways to ship a $250 engine (check ebay) to someone who had experience with them. Unfortunately most of the people who've done this work on this type of engine are dead now, so you work with what you have. However, if it was going to cost me $3000, freight and parts, just to get out from under an engine, I wouldn't have bought a Triumph, or I'd swap in a computer controlled 4 cylinder for less cost and be done with it.

It has been my experience that noone takes care of your car the way that you do (if you love it, that is.) And the elitism, condescension, and the assumption that every new person with a love for these cars knows all the same life lessons that you've all learned over time is probably the reason these cars don't attract the younger crowd. I didn't realize the older generations couldn't be trusted. When I pay a professional shop to turn a crank 10 under, and they tell me it's 10 under, I wasn't aware that these grown men needed to be checked up on like 6 year olds. When I order the correct bearings from the largest of the three suppliers of parts for these cars, I assume someone there has gone to the trouble to make sure they actually fit the car they're selling them for. I also don't check every box of cereal I buy for ground up glass, or send the hamburger meat off to the chemist to confirm that it's really made of cow and not dogs or other naive customers. Is this something you've always done as well?

So my point is, when I pay a professional engine builder to do work for me, whether I can operate a micrometer, know one from a caliper, or can juggle three of them blindfolded is beside the point. When I purchase bearings, the specialty parts house I order them from, how many metals are used, or what company made them is not pertinent. I match up the numbers on the box to confirm the box is what I ordered, and that should be the end of it.

At some level I have to trust that not everyone in the world is an idiot, and obviously this bites me sometimes.

 

[Richter12x2]

Regarding chips - the SCT Eliminator chip for the Mustang is 49-state legal. The headers are Ford Racing Performance Parts headers for GT40P heads, and are 50 state legal (categorized as a factory replacement in CA). The E Cam is also 49 State legal (California allows NO modifications, even if you end up cleaner on the other end, as we did.) The Cobra intake manifold is off-the-shelf Ford, and 50 state legal (in California, it must have been originally equipped with the engine, and in event of engine swaps, must have been equipped or optionally equipped on the engine year, not car year, and cannot pollute more than the factory equipped engine for the given year.)

The issue, UmmYeahOk stated, but might have been hidden behind the fog of judgement, was that we bought a used exhaust system for a 5.0L to save money, because the one from her previous 3.8L engine wouldn't fit. After all the tuning and adjustment to bring the emissions down, an actual GOOD shop (not the expensive highly sought after one that specializes in Mustangs) finally thought to check, and the previous owner had gutted the catalytic converters. Once we discovered that, we replaced them with new and breezed through emissions easily. The intent of the chip wasn't to circumvent emissions, it was to tune the computer maps for the new HCI, exhaust, and to adjust shiftpoints on the AOD-E transmission.

 

[Richter12x2]

We've got the new caps line-bored by a shop that actually knew what they were doing. Now it's painted and ready to be built and installed, just waiting for us to find the time - actually the caps have been installed already, this is an old picture. It's hard to get motivated to pull out a working, running engine, and then we have to swap over the head, timing chain and accessories.
On the plus side, it'll be nice to have the correct engine back in, and we've been limping along with a transmission that had a cracked slave cylinder mount - it works well enough to get into gear, but knowing that I'll have to pull the engine anyway, I just ordered a replacement bellhousing so that we'll have some solid clutch action again, hopefully.

 

[Guest]

I have to ask because I don't think it was mentioned before; when you are installing and tightening the caps, are you seating them all the way down before tightening? Are you seating them with both bolts a little at a time or are you tightening one bolt all the way down to spec and then the other?