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What's with all the Engine Rebuild Failures?

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RAC68

RAC68

Darth Vader
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Hi All,

As one who has never had their engine’s bottom end rebuilt (yet) and has a habit of shifting around the 5K RPM mark, considering an engine rebuild seems expensive and yields questionable results. Over the past 6 months, there have been a number of engine rebuilds exposed as a result of negative follow-on issues. Since these incidents are not limited a specific geography, engine builder, or even parts/supplier, I am wondering if there is something in the rebuild process that could lead to a questionable operating reliability.

I feel for those that have experienced the emotional and economic FALL of a FAILED Engine Rebuild. As one that, one day, will have to consider an engine rebuild, the causes of all these consequential issues are both important to be aware of and extremely concerning. Has anyone formed any ideas of what could be going wrong? Is it a rebuilder skills/focus issue? Are there parts or suppliers that seem to be unreliable?

WHAT are the prevailing thoughts?

Ray(64BJ8P1)
 
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Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

As a casual observer, I have heard of newly rebuilt engines failing due to:
1. New valve guides placed too tall.
2. Hardened valve seat came loose during operation.
3. Timing chain not indexed properly.
4. Cylinder not properly bored.
5. Inadequate block cleaning.
6. Connecting rod nuts not tightened to spec.
7. inadequate clearance between valve and guide.
Inattention to detail / inexperience seem to be common threads.
Everything needs to double checked.
My very experienced and highly recommended machinist assembled my head with parts I supplied.
3 valves were missing circlips when I got it back. That would have been a disaster if I hadn't spotted it.
That's the conundrum. We rely on experts, but we need to look over their shoulder.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

dcarlg said:
We rely on experts, but we need to look over their shoulder.
Click to expand...

In my case, that's spot on. I didn't even know what the parts in an engine were called when I asked a well respected rebuilder to do my rebuild. Now the engine is out again after only 4,000 miles, I wish I did. Don't rely on an expert, work together.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

I cut my teeth on a mini engine around 1967 / 8

Since then nothing until 2014 when it was essential that my BJ7 engine needed a rebuild or the world would run out of engine oil.

I did all the strip down and rebuild myself, farming out the machining work to experts.

A) it was cheaper and B) if anything went wrong with the build it would be my fault. I could take my time and ensure that what I had done was correct without any time penalties.

I have spent good money on experts trying to solve problems with my car in the past and always ended up finding the root cause of the problems myself, so these days I go it alone as long as I think that I can manage it, and as I now have plenty of time, being a retired Civil Engineer. At some time I am going to have to draw the line at the gearbox and overdrive though.

In principle the modern day replacement materials should be as good or better than the originals but you must chose your sources carefully to ensure that the quality is there. After that it comes down to either trusting yourself to build it properly or your Expert. There is no correct answer. I know of a fairly reputable firm who builds engines in house and sometimes farms them out. When one of those engines came back from the Outsource, it was installed and filled with oil, started up and it then failed within minutes. I forget what the problem was, but is was found on strip down and the Outsourcer held his hands up and had to rebuild it for free.


:cheers:

Bob
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

dcarlg said:
As a casual observer, I have heard of newly rebuilt engines failing due to:
1. New valve guides placed too tall....
7. inadequate clearance between valve and guide.
Inattention to detail / inexperience seem to be common threads.
Everything needs to double checked.
My very experienced and highly recommended machinist assembled my head with parts I supplied.
3 valves were missing circlips when I got it back. That would have been a disaster if I hadn't spotted it.
That's the conundrum. We rely on experts, but we need to look over their shoulder.
Click to expand...

This is pure speculation, but is it possible that engine overhauling is becoming a lost art? Many (most) newer cars seem to be treated as disposable commodities; they run for 200K+ miles then get sent to the crusher (or the owner buys a used engine from a junkyard). I had my BJ8's engine rebuilt by a speed shop in Modesto, CA; my dad has known the owner for decades and the shop employs a tech--he'd probably call himself a mechanic--who is meticulous to a fault (he also has A&P--aircraft mechanic--certification). He rejected some of the parts I supplied, and installed some he sourced, and they ran the engine for a couple hours on a test stand. The rebuild was probably 80% labor, and it was steep, but I put a few hundred miles on it, changed the oil and filter, then launched on a long road trip so it was worth it. Another long-time machine shop/builder in town, who we've used for various rebuilds, appears to have gone out of business.

Yes, some aftermarket parts are crap. That's why forums and email lists are so important; if a supplier or builder or part is sub-par, we can spread the word--discretely, of course--and maybe spare other owners some problems. We're lucky that we can usually find quality parts--eventually--for 50+ year-old cars at all.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Addendum: In my morning policing of the interwebs, I came across several mentions--mostly on Jalopnik and TTAC--about drivetrain failures in many modern/brand new cars (including incorrect head gasket installations, failing valve seats, etc.). So, maybe it's just an issue of imperfect humans building imperfect machines and, no, computers can't solve everything.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Bob Hughes said:
... At some time I am going to have to draw the line at the gearbox and overdrive though...

:cheers:

Bob
Click to expand...

I felt the same way recently, but with encouragement from Randy Forbes and Tom Monaco I tackled this job myself. There are lots of videos on the internet showing detailed steps for rebuilding both. I was most intimidated by the OD, but it ended up more straightforward than the gearbox (except for getting the two to mate up). Some rebuilders will automatically replace perfectly good bearings and other parts--and the OEM/older parts may still be better than repops--which will raise the cost immensely. If you can (successfully) rebuild an engine you can do these, too (and put an uprated accumulator in the OD; you'll be glad you did).
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

My very experienced and highly recommended machinist assembled my head with parts I supplied.
3 valves were missing circlips when I got it back. That would have been a disaster if I hadn't spotted it.
That's the conundrum. We rely on experts, but we need to look over their shoulder.​
Click to expand...
Those hairpins are only found on Brit motors from that era - you don't see them on Ford, Chev, Dodge, etc. because they do nothing and are not needed so you were not on the verge of disaster.

I don't wish to offend anyone, but looking over someone's shoulder won't do any good if you don't know/understand how things work - if you do understand, then just do it yourself like Bob Hughes suggests, the only thing I farm out is the machining that I don't have the equipment for and then I do my own assembly.

Beyond that, I have been disappointed in the work of others many times over the years which is why I do everything myself - as Bob says, then you know who to blame. But I doubt the incidence rate of failures by "professionals" is any higher now than 40 years ago.
Dave
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

The only engine work I farm out is the machining work the rest I do it myself , and ODs they are easy . Not done a full gearbox yet but I guess it will come eventually .
No one to blame except myself and no fighting over who didnt do what and why .
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Maybe the recent uptick in engine failures is coincidental?
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

When I was a much younger version of myself I dropped out of graduate school and went to a community college and earned my A &P aircraft ceritifications. Sheet metal, welding, machine shop basics, paint, hydraulics, pneumatics, electrical, engine rebuilding and all the nifty stuff that the folks who taught us had learned over whole careers were offered up over two academic years. As a result I at least feel like if I have the tools, I can teach myself how do do what I need. Best two years in school I spent. I sent my engine machine work to a good established shop and wasn't about to let anyone else build it, although I would have been safe letting the folks who did the machine work build it, they were too expensive for my budget. Mind you until I went to A &P school I barely knew which end of the screwdriver was the working end. To this day, I am no Randy Forbes when it comes to being a gearhead who has learned over a lifetime of doing. I have made my share of mistakes but I know that nobody would have been as careful as me when it came to putting my engine for the Healey together. Chances are for less than it would cost to pay a builder, you can buy the tools you need to do it yourself. Take your time. Find a good machine shop to do what you cannot. Assembly is when you make sure everything is correct and you won't be thinking about the next job you have scheduled and when you promised it for as many shops do. Also, with Youtube and all the various forums on line it has to be a pretty obscure subject to not have a video or discussion that is specific to what you are doing.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

i had a good mechanic tell me that no one rebuilds engines anymore because it is simply too easy to miss something or make one little mistake that will cause a lot of issues (and money). he had certainly seen his share of rebuilds that went bad. funny thing is, that mechanic told me that back in the early 80's. i think it has always been there.

for some of us the failures are caused by inexperience. but you have to try if you want to gain that experience. That is where i am. wish i had known more when i took my block, crank, and head to the machine shop. there are certainly things i would have asked and checked when done. if i do it again some time i will be a lot better prepared. also when you don't do this very often you don't have the local connections. so you don't know who you can really trust.

i did watch a lot of videos and read articles that helped. but it seems i got my best information after i had done something and then asked questions here. never would have tried this without the internet.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

About 10 years ago, I rebuilt the engine in my TR4A. I farmed out the head and crank to a machine shop that I had used many times in the past with good results. I assembled the engine, and it ran well. After breaking it in, changing the oil, and re-torquing the headbolts I took off to Phoenix from Albuquerque. It ran great, but after about 250 miles, it started to run like crap, so I pulled over and found that all of the valve clearances were gone! Turns out, I had asked the shop to put in hardened seats and modern valves just so I didn't have to worry about lead-free gas (if that's really a worry??). Well, they changed the valves, but left the OEM seats in place, so the 75mph high-speed run just beat the softer seats to death and caused the valves to pull up. I adjusted the valves, and gently drove home.

The shop, to their credit, did make it right (except for my time and a new copper head gasket). Turns out, the old man who had run the place had died, and his sons apparently weren't as detail oriented as he had been.

As DD mentioned above, there's probably too much liability in actually fixing something, so it's probably easier (and cheaper!) to buy complete units assembled somewhere off-shore, and just swap in a second - or third one - if it fails. Also, the youngsters I know don't seem to want to get dirty, or learn anything more than manipulating and organizing data.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Jim 58 BN6 said:
... Also, the youngsters I know don't seem to want to get dirty, or learn anything more than manipulating and organizing data.
Click to expand...

That was me, until I bought my BJ8. It depresses me to think what I would have missed had I not taken the leap.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Back in the ‘70’s I rebuilt several big Healey engines for extra money when I was in the Navy. Fortunately I picked an excellent machine shop that I could rely on and they had the skill and knowledge needed for the Austin engines.
As an example, they repaired a severely worn rear main by welding it up and line boring. Also repaired cracked block areas where the studs were screwed in. Sleeved cylinders when they needed it, etc, etc. Parts were better too.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Hi All and thanks for all Responses,

When considering the number of big Healeys still around and being driven, the number of these involved in an engine rebuild at any point in time is not large. Now consider, of this run-rate rebuild number, the percentage of rebuild failures involving highly recommended and experienced professionals seems quite substantial and concerning. Keep in mind that when you outsource your engine rebuild to a professional, you are paying to trust that professional with both the responsibility for performing the task and delivering the expertise to achieve the goals agreed to. However, this seems not to be the case in many cases and has left owners to find their way forward.

As I see it, recently we have had 3 threads describing faulty results on an engine rebuild where the Healey owners have become the responsible individuals to identify the build faults and validate the responsibilities for the short comings. This concerns me as one who does not have the knowledge or skills to do the rebuild but, as we have seen, selecting and paying a credible professional is NOT all that risk free. Maybe our only reasonable approach is to do as many have suggested, to take on the Rebuild Project and outsource selected tasks and machining.

Has anyone documented the points of a Healey engine rebuild so that a less knowledgeable owner could follow and use as a lead?

Ray(64BJ8P1)
 
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Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Part of the issue raised is quite simple to remedy. Choose a rebuilder who has the ability to run the engine prior to delivery. Ask for a run sheet with pressures, temperatures and compression test. There isn't a serious aircraft engine shop that would consider delivering an engine without doing that. One doesn't need a full blown state of the art test cell. Just a way to hold it down, hook up fuel, coolant and some calibrated gages. Run it per a normal break in, pull the oil filter and inspect, drain the fluids and ship to owner. Yes, they will charge for it but you know that cost up front and I doubt it would be too much compared to what you went through.
 
Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Good points Ray, but an experienced professional engine shop is not necessarily expert. If they have not done Healey engines, then they are not expert. The solution is to identify the expert builders and send the thing to them. When I was deciding to commission a full restoration of my BJ8, there were any number of local firms that do restorations, as would be the case in most any large market. None were necessarily known for Healey work, so I shipped it off to a firm that has done lots and lots of Big Healeys. Does that guarantee perfection? Probably not, but the odds will be well in your favor. My car had a few teething problems, so they sent an enclosed trailer and brought it back to their shop and fixed it because they stand behind their work. It was not their workmanship, it was a few repro parts that failed. When these cars were newer the skills to fix them were more abundant. Not anymore, and that makes the experts more valuable. If they are supported with our business, they will stay around longer. If you have an engine that needs to be rebuilt, strap it to a pallet and send it to an expert. I believe our own Randy Forbes has a nice business rebuilding people's engines and BMWs. He'd be one of them experts!
 
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