What's with all the Engine Rebuild Failures?

[RAC68]

Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

HI All,

Jon and Hugh make very good points. Having a rebuilder that has the facility to do engine run-ins and be able to provide run sheets with key operating information is definitely a plus. This does provide a substantial level of risk reduction and assurance that a quality rebuild commitment has been met. Also, as Hugh has suggested, selection of a Healey-experienced rebuilder, although harder to find, could also be a risk reducer. Although both are suggestions I would want to follow through on and very logical actions in the pursuit of reducing rebuild risk, I would expect the additional cost factors to be a deterrent for many.

As I understand, our engines are not that complex and a heck of a lot less complicated then an engine of today. There are fewer components and even less component dependencies and interactions then a modern engine. So, what is the cause of most rebuild failures? Component failures? Rebuilder focus/lack-of-interest? How does our rebuild failure compare to that of a more complex XKE or Alpha Romeo Voloce, engine of the same period?

Please don't misunderstand. This is an issue we have dealt with on an individual basis and, as individuals, have looked to the Forum for some guidance through the ordeal. As we have identified the cause of such innocuous issues as "Scuttle Shake" through our Forum discussions, maybe we can determine the underlying causes for this issue and also address, as we are doing, how to mitigate them.

Ray(64BJ8P1)

 

[Deleted member 21878]

Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

For myself i would have loved to have had a guide on putting the engine together. broken down in to sections, like installing the cam, the crank, pistons, even what to expect or get from your machine shop, etc. while the manual gives you some information, it certainly lacks some detail, guidance, and techniques. also there have been some improvements the manual does not cover. it would be great to have it all in one place to refer to and possibly some pictures/videos to go along with it.
i know there were times i asked questions and know the questions had been covered before. but doing searches on the site is frustrating for me. seems i have to read a ton of threads i don't care about in search of one i do.

 

[Michael Oritt]

Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

I must disagree with some of the statements made and conclusions reached in this string. Since the individuals involved in some of the cases Ray refers to, though not by name. are assumedly reading these posts I will exercise restraint of pen, if not thought.

Let's keep in mind a couple of things:

1. We are hearing these stories from car owners whose expectations were not met and who feel aggrieved as a result of some bad result. So far as I can tell we have not heard from the other side--the guy whose work is being questioned and/or the person who supplied the parts, or both--to tell us of his analysis of the failure, etc., background info, etc.
2. In some cases owners have had a professional do part of the work and then either hired a different person to complete reassembly/reinstallation, and/or did these themselves.
3. In some cases owners have walked past clear warnings that something was amiss and operated their cars versus turning off the engine and calling the professional involved.
4. We are not party to preliminary conversations where decisions to replace with new or go with existing parts, and run certain risks, were had.

Our trying to defend the (perceived) victim/car owner and indict the (possible) perpetrator/mechanic is a fool's errand. There are probably as many good and bad, ethical and deceptive, qualified and quack, professional and shade-tree mechanics, machinists and other tradesmen out there today as there have ever been. And, the internet and fora such as this one notwithstanding, there are also probably just as many well-informed, uninformed or semi-informed owners now as in the past. As always, a little information can be dangerous.

In a somewhat different vein: I do a lot of the work on both my street Healey and race cars but I am not an engine assembler. I try to know my limitations and when I am hiring professionals I prefer to let them to all of what their job is versus trying to save a buck and do the last 10%-20% of a job myself. Yes, this approach may cost more and I may be paying a guy to in part do things that I am qualified to do. But if something goes tits-up I then feel justified in asking a guy to stand by work that is all his versus something that he may have only had a part in and I or someone else may have screwed up. And when, for example, a mechanic wants to farm out a block to a machine shop for line-boring,. etc. perhaps it is best to let the shop owner pick someone he is comfortable with and is willing to stand behind versus telling him to use some machine shop who has great ads, etc.

Bottomline we are responsible for making good decisions, knowing what we are getting into, checking out who we are hiring, learning our part in the process, satrepping jup to the plate and managing our expectations.

End of rant....

 

[nevets]

Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Good points, MO...I believe the onus is on the owner to vet a resource before engaging them.

 

[HealeyRick]

Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

In a somewhat different vein: I do a lot of the work on both my street Healey and race cars but I am not an engine assembler. I try to know my limitations and when I am hiring professionals I prefer to let them to all of what their job is versus trying to save a buck and do the last 10%-20% of a job myself. Yes, this approach may cost more and I may be paying a guy to in part do things that I am qualified to do. But if something goes tits-up I then feel justified in asking a guy to stand by work that is all his versus something that he may have only had a part in and I or someone else may have screwed up. And when, for example, a mechanic wants to farm out a block to a machine shop for line-boring,. etc. perhaps it is best to let the shop owner pick someone he is comfortable with and is willing to stand behind versus telling him to use some machine shop who has great ads, etc.

Bottomline we are responsible for making good decisions, knowing what we are getting into, checking out who we are hiring, learning our part in the process, satrepping jup to the plate and managing our expectations.

End of rant....

I had the Ford engine in my Healey done by a very reputable shop and run in on the dyno before I swapped it in. It was an extra expense but I wanted the engine ready to go once the swap was completed without me having to do a lot of carb tuning, etc. After a few hundred miles, I heard a rattling in the motor under one of the valve covers. A rocker arm had dislodged. I called the shop, told them the problem and had the car flat-bedded over. It was fixed at no charge and all was right with the world. What would have happened if the heads were done somewhere else or by me and an errant part found its way into the sump or combustion chambers and lunched the engine? I'd have a total loss and the likelihood of some finger pointing and denying of responsibility. At least if one shop does everything, they are responsible and, in the worst case, if you have to take someone to court there's only one defendant to fight with. It's sort of like trying to find someone to paint a car that they haven't done the body and prep work on. The painter doesn't want to take the responsibility of someone else's poor prep work popping up a few months later and him taking the blame for a lousy paint job. Not everyone has the means to have someone else do all the work, but if you do I'd consider it good insurance over the relatively small amount you would save by doing the final assembly.

BTW, Michael, I always enjoy your use of the word "fora". Shows the mark of someone who suffered through Latin class and learned their plurals.

 

[RAC68]

Michael,

I don't disagree with much you have posted and you and Drone Dog have pointed to, what I believe is, the primary issue when addressing this type of project...knowledge of how to do and what to expect as a result. It appears that most learning in this space is achieved through on-project experiences with little or no clear information on specific Healey instruction. This leaves many to look toward others for the expertise necessary to achieve the objective and secure what they hope will be a lasting result. Since most experience a rebuild very infrequently, 1 being the common number, and without a guide (as per Drone Dog's post), it is not uncommon for the Healey owner to be open to missed expectations.

"When you don't know what you don't know, you don't even know what to ask."

So, how do you prepare for a Healey Engine Rebuild? What should you know before talking to a servicer? What should you expect of a servicer's delivery? Since identifying the answers to many of these questions is pegged to the specifics of a plan that could be different for each, what should a formal plan look like?

It seems to me that a good first step would be to develop a guide as defined by Drone Dog and others. Yes, it is for the Healey owner to take responsibility for the project and to vet all selected servicers, as nevets stated, but without applicable knowledge and experiences, we are dependent on a reference chain and could easily loose a clear understanding.

So, is there a Guide available as per Drone Dog? If not, how would one be created? Is anyone interested in creating one?

Ray(64BJ8P1)

 

[Michael Oritt]

Re: What's with all the ENGINE REBUILD FAILURED?

Rick--'
'
Though I did not say it yes, there is sometimes a "slight extra charge" for being able to fix responsibility on one person, which might involve one's paying him or her a charge (profit) for supervising, inspecting, etc. his subcontractor's work and/or the small tasks that one might do himself or get done elsewhere at a lesser cost such as delivering and ordering parts, etc.

Some shops may tack a percentage onto the bills of their subcontractors for doping the above, advancing funds, etc. and if we are going to look to the shop versus the sub that is the price of being able to bitch at them for the work of their sub. Other shops may forego such a charge. In any case, hopefully you will have picked your main guy well and he is an ethical person who feels responsible for what goes out his doors. Bottom line, his policy to tack on a bit of markup or not AND the scope of his responsibility for the ultimate product are things that should be discussed and understood at the beginning of the job.

As to "fora", I never took Latin but did go to Law School and in the process learned the proper plural forms for a number of terms that are "tools of the trade" whether in Latin or English.

 

[Michael Oritt]

Ray--

Your question "So, is there a Guide available as per Drone Dog?" is a good one.

I'd bet that a professional such as Tom Kovacs has a written menu of what is included in a Healey engine rebuild with "a la carte" options for upgrades such as preparing a crank to competition specs by wedging, etc.etc. I'm sure that some contributor who has done business with him or BCS or the like who frequently rebuild Healey engines can give us an answer.

 

[pdplot]

I once rebuilt an MG TD gearbox by myself using the MG Workshop Manual by W.E. Blower in one hand and feeding gearshafts into the casing in the other. My first effort was NG - I couldn't shift into 3rd gear - but- I took apart and reasembled and it worked perfectly. Without the manual I would not have attempted such a job. As it was, the manual failed to say that 24 little steel balls were spring loaded and they flew out of the casing all over the floor at 1 am. Panic city. Live and learn. My point is this - isn't there a decent workshop manual for the A-H with a detailed section on engine rebuilding? Problem today is that many "technicians" are replacement artists not rebuilders.

 

[steveg]

3000 miles down the road on a successful rebuild, a couple of thoughts:
One trusted mechanic in charge of the whole rebuild. He used his trusted subcontractor. My guy didn't mark up the parts or machine shop buyout. The whole cost of the rebuild was around $8k.
I saved money by doing the busy work myself: removed everything around the engine, then trailered the car to his shop. It took < 1 hr to pull the engine. Then took the car back to repaint engine bay, rewire, etc.
I was fortunate he had his original specs for his .060"-over Venolia forged pistons, so I had them dupe his order.
The machine shop was the holdup -- the engine was over there for at least a couple of months. This gave me time to paint the engine bay, etc.
Reversed the process for the install. I attached all the ancillary stuff but trailered the car back to the shop for the mechanic to do the initial startup. So he would be responsible for anything wrong. I left the car there for a few days so he could drive it around and do his QA. He drove it about 30 miles.
He caught my mistake: I'd installed the spin-on filter adapter upside down and there was no oil pressure on initial startup.
Without his advice, I wouldn't have bought the oversized forged pistons or the DWR 8 cam.
His total service charge was around $3k. Parts were $5k.
Money well spent.

 

[RAC68]

Hi All,

Michael, that is a good suggestion to look in to. The issue I see is that the selection of appropriate options would need at least a base level of required services to meet a particular level of engine performance. However, I would expect Tom to first perform an evaluation of the engine and then make suggestions needed to meet a level of owner-desired performance. To secure a clear understanding of deliverables, I would expect Tom to lay out his plan of services to achieve the objective and a list of activities he would expect the owner to provide.

Steve, you identified a knowledgeable Healey rebuild that took prime contractor responsibility and you could say outsourced the "BUSY Work" back to you. This arrangement seems quite appropriate as it allowed him to deal with the key points of the rebuild and provided a reasonable price by your doing the less critical work. Was there any documents that defined the separation of activities which allowed for a clear understanding and expectations?

In both situations, a lack of engine rebuilding knowledge and/or experiences puts the Healey owner fully dependent on the skills, knowledge, and recommendations of the rebuilder and requires really good vetting of the servicer being fully trusted.

Additionally, there have been quite a few suggestions of what and how to address a rebuild within the "Motor Kaput" thread that provides some specifics. However, most suggestions reflect owner experiences and, although very interesting and educational, would be difficult (but not impossible) to draw a general approach by a knowledgeable Forum participant.

Thanks Guys,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

 

[Rob Glasgow]

When I was planning an engine rebuild 20 years ago, I spoke with another Healey owner who had a local recommended machine shop do his engine. It was a disaster and he wound up taking it to British Car Specialist to have it corrected. I decided to skip to disaster part and took the car staight to BCS. After the rebuild, David kept the car for a few days and drove it until he felt any issues had been resolved. I didn't really appreciate how important it was to have someone do that part of the process until I picked up the car and had absolutely no issues. I understand not everyone can have a rebuilt engine installed back in a roadworthy car, but certainly as a minimum, do what roscoe suggests and have the rebuilder test run it before you take it home.

 

[HealeyRick]

Test, please ignore.

 

[Brinkerhoff]

There isn't anything special or unique about a Healey engine that warrants the concern given on this thread, though I can understand the trepidation of some of you! We've all been there ! I used to do mechanical work for a living , now its just a hobby. In the last 43 years, I've rebuilt dozens of T series MG engines , MGA engines incl. a Twin Cam , MGBs, Sprite , Chevrolet 283 V-8 , an old International 6 cyl. and Healey 6 cylinders , and all successfully. The proper protocol on any engine rebuild is cleanliness of the block , oil galleys , crankshaft , pistons , bores etc. beyond what you can imagine as clean and a thorough understanding of how all the parts are "fitted" to each other and to the block and how the thing is supposed to work ! I'm by no means a mechanical whiz but I've put the hours in at the shop that were needed and learned from many machinists and race engine builders and I've seen a lot of broken parts and ruined dreams.

Most new rebuilds fail because the assembling mechanic didn't do a thorough enough job cleaning the parts .

Its not the machinist , or the replacement parts . Its the grit left inside ready to ruin the bearings on start up or within a few thousand miles! Never trust the oil filter! A Healey block that has been "tanked" or "baked" or whatever the shop does where you are at doesn't mean everything is clean ! You have to drill out the oil galley soft plugs and run shotgun barrel cleaning brushes down them and the full length of the block wetting the brushes with non-chlorinated aerosol brake cleaner to completely remove any trace of 60 year old crap and machining grit. The crankshaft has been turned ? You had better clean the oil galleys of machining grit with pipe cleaners and brake clean also. On the whole engine I use at least 3 cans of brake cleaner 6 rolls of paper towels , pipe cleaners, brushes etc. until the paper towel wipes clean and constantly blow everything out with clean compressed air. Fitting the parts , cleaning of a Healey block etc. usually takes me 20 hours. Its not hard nor technical , but it is necessary.

Best of luck with your engine rebuild ! Other than painting a car , its the most satisfying part of restoration. I know I don't always come across as helpful and sincere but I know how much it sucks to have a major failure and I'd do anything I could to help another enthusiast prevent that. The ultimate goal is for me is to have the engine rotate no more than five times before it fires and runs for 20 -30 minutes. Its very satisfying when that happens , you'll see !

 

[Deleted member 21878]

Man, you mean i have to worry for a few thousand miles to know if i screwed up???? Holy cow!!!!!

.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

Must be the water. I built three engines at the same time in 2016. All BJ8 motors. First one I installed ran about two hours total. It made awful knocking noise after a ten mile drive. Installed second one in my brothers 57 100/6. It ran fine, it was built 40 over and some kind of high lift cam. Put the third one in the BJ8 that the engine knocked. Its running fine. Have not pulled the first engine down yet to see what the problem is.
Marv

 

[Jim 58 BN6]

Most new rebuilds fail because the assembling mechanic didn't do a thorough enough job cleaning the parts .

Its not the machinist , or the replacement parts . Its the grit left inside ready to ruin the bearings on start up or within a few thousand miles! Never trust the oil filter! A Healey block that has been "tanked" or "baked" or whatever the shop does where you are at doesn't mean everything is clean ! You have to drill out the oil galley soft plugs and run shotgun barrel cleaning brushes down them and the full length of the block wetting the brushes with non-chlorinated aerosol brake cleaner to completely remove any trace of 60 year old crap and machining grit. The crankshaft has been turned ? You had better clean the oil galleys of machining grit with pipe cleaners and brake clean also. On the whole engine I use at least 3 cans of brake cleaner 6 rolls of paper towels , pipe cleaners, brushes etc. until the paper towel wipes clean and constantly blow everything out with clean compressed air. Fitting the parts , cleaning of a Healey block etc. usually takes me 20 hours. Its not hard nor technical , but it is necessary.

Yes, cleanliness is #1!

I was taught to measure everything (with decent instruments), and compare the measurements to what's listed in the repair manual. I also use Plastigage to verify all rod and main bearing clearances, although, for some reason, a lot of people seem to look down their noses at this stuff - but it always works for me. Check the oil pump to make sure it's in spec. Also check the ring gaps - on a couple of occasions, I've had to carefully file them after finding them too tight.

I've built 4 Triumph TR3-4A engines, 2 TR6, 3 FIAT 124 twin-cams, two Alfa 2L and 4 V8's. I did install the timing chain incorrectly on my first one, a Ford 292 in my first car, when I was 15. Once that was fixed, it started right up. Otherwise, apart from the valve problem I mentioned in an above post, they've all been successful.

This isn't rocket science (or it shouldn't be!), and I think it just boils down to cleanliness, having the right reference material and tools, and paying close attention during assembly. I'm by no means a professional, but over the years I have studied a lot, and have been fortunate enough to have spent a LOT of time with people who were willing to teach me - maybe I'm a good listener - I don't know.

 

[HealeyRick]

Yes, cleanliness is #1!

I was taught to measure everything (with decent instruments), and compare the measurements to what's listed in the repair manual. I also use Plastigage to verify all rod and main bearing clearances, although, for some reason, a lot of people seem to look down their noses at this stuff - but it always works for me. Check the oil pump to make sure it's in spec. Also check the ring gaps - on a couple of occasions, I've had to carefully file them after finding them too tight.

I've built 4 Triumph TR3-4A engines, 2 TR6, 3 FIAT 124 twin-cams, two Alfa 2L and 4 V8's. I did install the timing chain incorrectly on my first one, a Ford 292 in my first car, when I was 15. Once that was fixed, it started right up. Otherwise, apart from the valve problem I mentioned in an above post, they've all been successful.

This isn't rocket science, and I think it just boils down to cleanliness, having the right reference material and tools, and paying close attention during assembly. I'm by no means a professional, but over the years I have studied a lot, and have been fortunate enough to have spent a LOT of time with people who were willing to teach me - maybe I'm a good listener, I don't know.

And that's the nub of it, isn't it? We either have the confidence and patience to do it on our own and accept the responsibility if thing go bad, or farm it out to someone with better skills and blame it on them when it goes tits up.

 

[glemon]

Rick, yes, that sums it up pretty well.

Only thing I will add, professional shops have better tools (in most cases) and experience on their side.

I have rebuilt a few engines successfully. In hindsight the first was probably dumb luck, pre internet, Haynes manual, basic set of hand tools and a combination of faith in the parts I ordered being in spec, or ignorance that they could be wrong, but ran like a champ for many years of subsequent ownership.

But what I have used in my later, more by the book, rebuilds that shops probably can't afford so much of is time. I double and triple check things, quit and go to bed, read the manual (again) before I went to sleep, and rechecked everything before I started the next day, caps back on the way they came off, motor turn by hand smoothly with regular even resistance, lock washers or tabs in place, etc., etc. A professional shop won't take that kind of time. I am usually not that fastidious, but if ever there was a do it once, do it right job this is it.

Lastly, know your limitations, I like mechanical things, seeing how they work and fixing them if they don't, and have been reasonably successful at it. I consider engines to be fun (maybe because you can do the work on a bench or stand) bodywork on the other hand...I like fabricating parts and welding them in, but the fine art of getting things perfectly smooth for paint does not come easy to me, I always get a wave or ripple somewhere, even after I redo the panel after the paint looks wonky the first time. I know people who are just the opposite. So from an old philosophy major, know thyself for best results.

 

[Randy Forbes]

The Robert Bentley manual, The Complete Official Austin-Healey 100/6 & 3000 covers an engine (and ancillaries) rebuild start to finish.

Just because the bulk of it was written some 60 years ago, doesn't make it irrelevant.

Forgive me if that's been stated previously in this thread, I've been away from the site a few days and only read most of the first page (and thanks Cleah, for the endorsement).