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Need help with exhaust part.

T

Tinster

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My new carbs have finally arrived!!
I attempted to install them but could not remove
the exhaust manifold pipes to install the new gasket.
My exhaust pipes look nothing like the Bentley book
and I cannot find them on the internet either.

But they look in very poor condition to me. Should I
replace them while the car is dead and in pieces?
If I replace, can someone identify exactly what I have
so I can order new ones? Photo attached.

thanks as always.

tin
 

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  • 247649-exhaustpipes2.jpg
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swift6

Yoda
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That is one very rusty header. If it seems weak in spots then you should definitely replace that. If you want to keep a header then Moss, VB and TRF have a few choices. Though you could keep under bonnet temps down by putting one of the cast manifolds back on, which if you don't have, some of the Triumph breakers should be able to help quite easily.

I see a whole new exhaust system in your future. Especially if the rest of looks like that header. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yesnod.gif
 
OP
T

Tinster

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OUCH!! New exhaust system??

What on earth is a "cast manifold"?
where does it go?
What is it's function?
Where do I purchase one?

I have a brand new intake manifold attached
to my new carbs. Will they be compatible with
a "cast manifold"?

Oh my, oh my, oh my! This TR6 seems like it will
be dead forever. It is an open red coffin I keep
shoveling cash into.

I thought the new carbs would be a major victory
in bringing the car back to life. Seems not to be.

d
 

Brosky

Great Pumpkin
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The cast manifold is the original cast iron manifold that came with the car. There was an early single pipe version and a later twin pipe that I believe was used from 1973 to 1976.

If you do get a header make sure that you get it coated to prevent this type of rust and to get heat out the engine compartment as well. I highly recommend JetHot for inside and outside coating. I bought a Pacesetter header from JetHot coated inside and out for less than the big three sold them uncoated. You will have to have an extension pipe made from the header collector to your exhaust system by a local shop and you will have to grind a few thousands from several of the mounting flanges to get it to mate with the intake, but it's no huge undertaking.

There are others that may not require any of this, but I'm not familiar with them.
 

TR4nut

Yoda
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Tinster-

Here's a cast one from ebay to give a start:

TR6 exhaust manifold

If your goal is to get it on the road, you certainly could hold off on pulling the header and then when you get parts accumulated do whatever change you want. I don't think an exhaust swap will be too time consuming (but hey, its not my car!).

I sold my last TR6 to a guy in Puerto Rico about 15 years ago (green 1971), so if you see something like that at a wrecking yard let me know...

Randy
 

jsneddon

Jedi Knight
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Cast header is the orignal exhaust header. It's a cast piece of metal instead of the welded tubes that you have. That is a replacement header that you've got on there now (and may end up giving you a little more performance than the stock cast header)

You don't have to get all crazy. If you can get that one off to replace the gasket and there aren't any holes then I'm all for leaving it on. Replace the carbs, get it running, have some fun, put a new manifold on your list of things to do later. It isn't that big of a job in the whole scheme of things.

I hate to see the "might as wells" set aside the fun of actually driving your car.

Obviously if you're looking for a show car then your decisions will be different. But it sounds like you just want to get the dang thing moving and have some fun.

I've always been in the camp of "make it go, make it stop, make it safe... pretty can come later"

And come on guys.... every car that you drove to the store last night has a used exhaust system. Surface rust happens....
 

martx-5

Yoda
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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif

That manifold you have on there should be fine. If tou want to change out the gasket, you will more then likely have to remove the three flange bolts shown in the last picture. At that point, the header should just slide off the studs. It doesn't look like the starter will get in the way.
 

Andrew Mace

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[ QUOTE ]
My new carbs have finally arrived!!
I attempted to install them but could not remove
the exhaust manifold pipes to install the new gasket....

[/ QUOTE ]Hmmm, no one seems to have addressed this first question. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Is the "header" literally stuck to the head, or ???? Perhaps you could use some wood wedges or shims to slowly drive down between header and gasket and loosen whatever bond is there. A screwdriver or prybar would be tempting, but I always fear unnecessary damage with those! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
 

Brosky

Great Pumpkin
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Yeah, I guess we all missed the point. Typical advice from those not actually doing or paying for the work. Sometimes a putty knife tapped down between the header and block will break those loose. Someone may have used a sealer on the gasket to the head, since these can be notorious for leaking.
 

Alan_Myers

Luke Skywalker
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Hi,

I agree with everyone elses' info and wanted to toss out some additional.

Yes, a cast metal manifold was what originally came on the car and yours has been replaced with a tubular header, probably as a performance upgrade (possibly as a less expensive replacement, if the original manifold were damaged in some way).

The original cast Triumph manifolds aren't all that bad in terms of performance. There are a few places where they can crack/break and studs in them often get rusty and/or "rust welded" in place. Or, like most studs, seems the nuts weld themselves on and the stud unthreads itself.

A thicker, cast manifold does keep more of the exhaust heat (and noise) inside it, but is also heavier and not as easily "tuned" for improved performance.

Tubular headers tend to be a bit noisier and allow more heat to pass through the thinner metal walls. On a positive note, most Triumph engines can benefit from any improved scavanging of exhaust out of the cylinders, and a tubular header is one thing that can help that. A header alone added to an engine might make a few more horsepower. In combination with other improvements, it can be more highly effective. Some other modifications (such as adding a set of Weber sidedraft DCOE carbs) practically require a header be installed to realy work well.

Tubular headers can be "tuned" to improve performance in specific areas of the engine's rpm range. This is done by using different inside diameter and length of piping, keeping the runs as straight as possible and modifying te overall design of the header. It so happens you have a "long primary" header there, with the pipes coming off the exhaust ports each being continuous all the way down to the larger "collector" at the end. This is a 6-into-1 design and was (is?) the most common type available and over the years. Probably most were installed by folks "improving" their cars and wanting "a header", without much careful thought as to what different designs can do in terms of performance.

However, basically speaking, the longer the primary pipes, the more the header is tuned for high rpms. So, while a long primary header like on yours will usually give the most increase in horsepower, it does so at the very top of the rpm range and often at some expense to torque and performance in low- to mid-rpm ranges that are actually what are much more frequently used on the street (and in some types of racing, i.e. autocross). This is not to say you must run out and change it, just that it's probably not the most ideal design for a street car. These long-primary designs are most likely copies of extensive work that's been done to develop very high performance, full race engines, by folks like Kas Kastner in the 60s and 70s and Greg Solow right up to today. They (and many others) run lots of careful dyno tests to see what works best in a specific application. However this is usually road racing, occasionally drag racing, all high rpom stuff and not very applicable to street use. (An interesting exception: The Sebring TR4s Kastner prepped used a Y-type custom header with shorter primaries, he says for more flexible engine performance in that endurance race.)

If you want to continue using a header and ever find yourself looking for a replacement, for street driving a 6-into-3-into-1 design (sometimes called a "Tri-Y") might be a little better choice. Also, consider the way any headers you look at are actually made: All bends should be smooth and not "crushed" on the inside radius when they are bent(i.e., mandrel bent) . Ideally the primary tubes should all be close to the same length. And, sharp bends nearest the cylinder head are best avoided (straighter is better) if at all possible.

Another point, the heat given off by headers increases underhood temps and, worse, on many cars including Triumphs it's concentrated right under the carbs and next to the alternator and starter. An engine works better with cooler fuel, not "warmed up" in the carb float bowls by the exhaust system! The alternator and starter will live longer if not regularly "toasted" by a lot of radiant heat.

There are several methods of dealing with this heat, which can be combined or used individually. Some "solutions" can be used with either cast manifolds or tubular headers, however heat reduction is more likely to be needed with headers becasue of their greater heat transfer.

One method is to install a heat shield (or shields). It's simply a bent piece of metal sheeting that's bolted on somehow, in between the header and whatever the shield is protecting. The idea is simply to reflect radiant heat. The most effective heat shielding has a secondary layer applied, perhaps a reflective foil and some sort of insulation in between. (Dynamat is one manufacturer of this sort of thing.)

Some other heat control methods include either ceramic coating or wrapping the header pipes themselves. A heat shield can only help reflect radiant heat, while wrap or ceramic coating will also work to reduce overall ambient temps in the engine compartment.

The header you've got is made of mild steel (the surface rust on it makes that obvious). This type of steel header is *not* generally recommended to be wrapped (a special high temp cloth tape is wound around the pipes). The reason is that the wrap greatly increases temps held within the piping (which also has a benefit of increasing gas speed, which is good for scavanging). The temps of wrapped exhaust piping generally exceed mild steel's capabilities and the metal will deteriorate quickly, shortening the life of the header dramatically.

If the header you've got there is sound, i.e. not rusted through anywhere, still has strong welds and no cracks or significant dents, you might want to send it off to be ceramic coated. This can really spruce up the appearance of an old header that's got surface rust, makes it look like new, but more importantly also acts to keep heat inside the headers and lower temperatures throughout the engine compartment. In most cases, the special ceramic is also applied inside the piping, which has another benefit that it smooths the surfaces out and improves gas flow through the header. Last time I checked, ceramic coating cost around $150 to have done. (It's best if a set of new headers is carefully fitted to the car, before coating.) There used to be only one or two places that did this sort of work, but others have popped up in recent years and you might even find a local source.

Stainless steel headers are more durable than mild steel and can tolerate higher temperatures, but are more expensive because the material is more expensive to start with, plus is more difficult to work with and weld. However, stainless steel exhaust piping will hold up almost indefinitely and can easily handle being wrapped.

I haven't made any sort of direct and scientific comparison of wrapping vs ceramic coating, but suspect the wrapping might be slightly more effective in most cases. On the other hand, wrapping will likely need to be redone every few years, while ceramic coating is relatively permanent.

Any new exhaust header you buy, if you go that route, will most likely need some hand-fitting to insure that the flange seals well and there are no stresses or strains on the rest of the exhaust system (possible exception: a good straight original cast manifold). Many folks assume they can simply bolt a header right up and drive away. Sometimes that works, other times they have to replace blown gaskets frequently and wonder why. The reason is that headers are handmade and have a lot of welding done on them. Often there is a slight bit of warpage or misalignment that needs to be corrected. The last set I fitted, Falcon stainless steel (short primary or Y-type), needed a bit of work around the mounting holes for best fit, but seemed to have a good, straight flange.

Nearly always, both headers and even the original cast manifolds can benefit from some "port matching" work, too, although that's sort of the icing on the cake during performance tuning. The extent that most people do is just fit/check that the new exhaust manifold gaskets are well fitted and aren't intruding on the ports in any way.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 

swift6

Yoda
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I've seen mild steel headers that rusty crumble before my eyes. Especially when they are disturbed from where they have set themselves. It could very well break when pulling it off. If it doesn't, then keep it until you have to change it. Have to agree with Jim on that point. Driving these cars are the best way to keep your enthusiasm up.

Speaking of which, someone close to Alan A. should go take him for a ride before he gets anymore depressed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 

kc_doyle

Jedi Trainee
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I have headers of that nature on my Spit. However they may look rusty, mine are very sound. If you think that there are weak spots, a bit of a bang on um with a wrench or such would tell you. They will ring a bit if not firm.
 
OP
G

Guest

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I got to "drive" it yesterday - freewheeling backwards off the flatbed for a good solid 5-6 feet.

Thats the furthest it has gone for weeks...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
OP
G

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AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif
 
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