Engine spins, has OP, but.........

[MisterB]

Hi Folks-
Been on hiatus from the shop for a few week cleaning up the mess from the ice storm of 2017.
Finally spent a day on the car and made some progress. Couldn't face another day of welding and grinding so I went for some good old greasy-fingernail mechanical work. Put in fresh oil and filter, new valve cover gasket, removed plugs and hooked the starter up to a battery with jumpers. It spun on its own! Watched it for a while and the oil pressure made it's way up to 38 pounds. This is with some throwaway 30 weight (spin it a couple of times, drain, get it to fire, drain, then replace with good oil- it's always worked well for me on engines with spotty histories.) cold and running on the starter. Here's the rub...
Ran compression test. 90# on #5 cylinder, not enough to register on the other 5(!!??) "Thumb over the hole" test says there's SOMETHING happening in there, but the gauge doesn't show it. Yes, I re-ran the valves after the first readings and here's another clue.... The cylinder with pressure (#5) is the cylinder that had a stuck valve. Got it sorted with very little drama, just patience. All the rest cycled fine..... or so I think! And yes, I did shoot the cylinders with a couple of pumps of engine oil after the first no-go and retested. Not enough difference to go on.
BACKSTORY-- The last owner told me that he bought the car in about 1999. He got it running-- not running and driving, then started to remove everything that you can remove. The body was sandblasted and a bit of welding done and there it sat for a bit shy of 2 decades. I soaked the engine first thing I got it with MMO in all cylinders and down the rocker rails a few times.
Does any of this sound familiar? Something common to look at here other than pulling the head? I'm not at the point where an overhaul is in the cards yet- too many other things going on.
Thanks in advance for any input/ experiences/ miracle cures!
Best-
Mike Burgess
Albert, KS

 

[Jim 58 BN6]

Mike,

IMO, if you added oil, and the compression didn't change, it is probably stuck (or burned) valves. You mentioned adjusting the valves - did you notice any height differences in their springs/stems? It wouldn't take much.

Also, did you check the valve timing on #1 cyl to rule out timing chain/gear issues? You're looking for a fairly large error here, so that can be a crude test: just make sure that the intake valve starts to open at about the right place on the damper/pulley - no real precision is required now.

If the engine did run, as the PO said, then the valves could just be sticking in their guides. You could squirt some MMO on their stems, and then try the "Rope Trick" to 'unstick" them. GL, Jim

Edit: I guess I should have mentioned a blown head gasket. But since it "ran" (if it actually did), hopefully not!

 

[MisterB]

Good call Jim. It also occurred to me as I was typing the post that I neglected to run over to the carb side and give 'em the "ear test" to see if I could hear the telltale "shoosh" of an open intake valve. I did soak the valve stems and rocker pivots with MMO when I first got the car but carbon and rust are mighty foes. Now, where's that darned dial gauge?? Short of that I could just whack 'em with a ball pien and a brass drift. Thanks!

 

[Jim 58 BN6]

Good call Jim. It also occurred to me as I was typing the post that I neglected to run over to the carb side and give 'em the "ear test" to see if I could hear the telltale "shoosh" of an open intake valve. I did soak the valve stems and rocker pivots with MMO when I first got the car but carbon and rust are mighty foes. Now, where's that darned dial gauge?? Short of that I could just whack 'em with a ball pien and a brass drift. Thanks!

Mike, before you adjusted the valves, were any of the gaps a bit too large? If so, that might give you a clue as to which ones might be sticky. Just another thought to add to the confusion! Jim

 

[red57]

I would suggest a leak-down test. Then you can really hear where the air is going.

 

[MisterB]

Monday update- Had a bit of shop time Sunday and there is progress. Did the "air hose" test. Plugs out, apply air to cylinder with both valves closed, engine turns, valves are seating. Worked on 3 cylinders. (Been soaking down the valve stems for a week or so) Danced on the valve end of the rockers a bit with a brass hammer and all 6 are working! Compression varies from 90 to 30 (dry, running on the starter with a so-so battery cold), but at least there's a start. I reckon the valves are a bit gunchy yet from sitting in the same spot for almost 2 decades. Next step- remedial ignition system ala test stand and see if I can get it to run a bit. Can't get back to the welding and grinding until I shake this croupy crud that's been vexing me for a couple of weeks. Watch this space!
Thanks again guys!
Mike Burgess
Albert, KS

 

[DTDuck]

Hi Folks-
Been on hiatus from the shop for a few week cleaning up the mess from the ice storm of 2017.
Finally spent a day on the car and made some progress. Couldn't face another day of welding and grinding so I went for some good old greasy-fingernail mechanical work. Put in fresh oil and filter, new valve cover gasket, removed plugs and hooked the starter up to a battery with jumpers. It spun on its own! Watched it for a while and the oil pressure made it's way up to 38 pounds. This is with some throwaway 30 weight (spin it a couple of times, drain, get it to fire, drain, then replace with good oil- it's always worked well for me on engines with spotty histories.) cold and running on the starter. Here's the rub...
Ran compression test. 90# on #5 cylinder, not enough to register on the other 5(!!??) "Thumb over the hole" test says there's SOMETHING happening in there, but the gauge doesn't show it. Yes, I re-ran the valves after the first readings and here's another clue.... The cylinder with pressure (#5) is the cylinder that had a stuck valve. Got it sorted with very little drama, just patience. All the rest cycled fine..... or so I think! And yes, I did shoot the cylinders with a couple of pumps of engine oil after the first no-go and retested. Not enough difference to go on.
BACKSTORY-- The last owner told me that he bought the car in about 1999. He got it running-- not running and driving, then started to remove everything that you can remove. The body was sandblasted and a bit of welding done and there it sat for a bit shy of 2 decades. I soaked the engine first thing I got it with MMO in all cylinders and down the rocker rails a few times.
Does any of this sound familiar? Something common to look at here other than pulling the head? I'm not at the point where an overhaul is in the cards yet- too many other things going on.
Thanks in advance for any input/ experiences/ miracle cures!
Best-
Mike Burgess
Albert, KS

Based on what you said here I think without pulling the head, you're just rearranging the Deck chairs on the Titanic, so to speak...
Here's another clue, in your "Thumb over the plug hole test" did it blow your thumb off the hole? If you can hold the thumb on the hole there wont be enough compression for it to run. If you can't hold your thumb over the hole, then try a different comp. gauge. In any event 90 lbs is just barely enough for it to run anyway so I would look at pulling the head and looking at the valves. This doesn't necessarily mean a full valve job or overhaul. Pulling the head and disassembling the valves is only about a mornings work and you may find an easy fix. With the engine having sat for so long depending on the conditions of where the car was stored, you could have some corrosion on the valves or seats that is keeping you from getting a good seal. If that's the case a little elbow grease with some steel wool and a wire brush followed by a good lapping of the valves may be all you need to get it going (along with a new head gasket and some valve stem seals). of course this could also reveal more serious problems such as sunken seats from unleaded gas, burned or bent valves, dead rings, worn cylinders, etc. But even then, at least you would know what you're dealing with. Good Luck.

Dan Marshall

 

[MisterB]

Hi Dan-
Right now I'm trying to get this 3000 solid, in one presentable piece. It came home in many boxes and bags with a sketchy history. Assessing the condition of the engine gives me an idea of a direction when that time comes. Been doing an awful lot of welding to get the main lump in shape but with this croupy yuk lately I can't see grinding dust in my best interest. Thus tinkering about with the engine to get an idea of it's basic condition. Best case scenario at present is a car that's together and will at least limp around under it's own power to relocate as necessary while I finish up some other cars that really should be ahead of this one. ( But this one is SOOOO cool, I couldn't resist. Mission creep.) Looking at a couple more rental houses too! My only day off is Sunday so I need to accomplish something every one. I did look at the bolt layout to yank the head but had to hold back. That snowball is getting mighty big as it is! Really don't want to remove the head until I have the front wings and shroud back off. Saves a lot of blood that way! It's a great plan on paper, anyway!
Thanks-
Mike

 

[MisterB]

Hi Folks-
Given time this Sunday I think I'll se if I can get the engine in the '67 to cough, spit or sputter. "Run" is a best-case scenario and I don't want to get my hopes up. Here's my plan for a remedial ignition circuit------ Cable from battery + to engine block. Cable from battery - to starter post. Wire from battery- to coil -. Wire from coil+ to dizzy. Fill fuel bowls with the garage guy's secret weapon-- a squeeze mustard bottle. Hit it and see if it does anything. Solid plan or grenade in the making? Just wanting to see if this engine will function at all. Not near close to tear it down and gauge everything point on this one. Thanks in advance for any advice, constructive criticism or even useful derision!
Mike Burgess
Albert, KS

 

[MisterB]

But....... It runs! Dosen't run well or run for a long time but it doesn't rattle or hammer. Blew a hefty mouse nest out of the headpipe and did not even catch fire! Fortune smiles! That's as good as I could hope for on this engine given it's long sit and sketchy history. Next I'll see if the cooling system will hold water and try to get it to idle for a bit. Progress.
In between topping up the battery for test spins managed to do some rear shroud fitting as well. Finally feel like I'm accomplishing something!
Best-
Mike Burgess
Albert, KS

 

[MisterB]

Monday update.... It runs! Not coughs and sputters but really runs. Blew out the radiator and ran a gallon of water through it to make sure there were no mouse nests or mud dauber tubes in it. Buttoned it up and filled it with water. Filed the points. Nudged the dizzy while I listened to it turn, rigged up a gravity feed fuel system and BLAMMO! Darn thing ran and idled even. Yes, the water pump drips and the carbs puke a bit but at least I have a direction now. If it hammered or wouldn't run at all I was just going to finish up the platform structure and push it into the barn. Knowing what I do now I'll go ahead and rebuild the clutch actuation system and the brakes so it will limp along under it's own power.
Really optimistic about the internal condition. Shows a little over 65 psi oil pressure at high idle on 30 weight warm. Idle is acceptable given the state of the carbs and rough timing by ear only. Had a regular miss but it went away after it warmed up some on a short run.
Spent the rest of the day nudging and fitting the rear shroud. Oh, the mayhem a rear hit can cause. Looks as though it was slap-dash repaired many years ago by a production shop when it was just a used car with an insurance claim. Silver lining- the car is about 5 pounds lighter just knocking out the bondo!
Mike Burgess
Albert, KS