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Building a new engine....

macino62

Jedi Hopeful
Offline
Hi Guys,

Sorry for my last couple of threads being a bit off base from "tech" stuff, but it's nice to be a bit less robotic sometimes.

anyway, I picked up another engine for my car. I haven't done a compression test or anything yet, but it will be rebuilt, anyway.

I would like some suggestions on how I should go about this, from the guys with more experience than I.

Basically I want to build the motor for a performance application. The car is driven on the street, but I am willing to give up comfort levels for performance.

Bigger P/C's, webers, performance cam, head mods, etc....what should I do? Porsches are pretty cut and dry on what to do for performance rebuilds, but the Triumph engine is new territory for me.

I was looking through the photos and Alan Myers looks like he has done a lot of good things on his car.

I was contemplating an engine swap, but I just can't get myself to do it on the yellow car............

Thanks, Mike
 
G

Guest

Guest
Guest
Offline
How original do you want it to be?
How much money do you want to spend?

Decide that and you'll be making a good start...
 
OP
macino62

macino62

Jedi Hopeful
Offline
originality....i could care less

money...under 3K? (keep in mind that i have access to a machine shop, and i do all my own work...)
 

Alan_Myers

Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi Mike,

Still lots to do on my motor, I'm afraid /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif , but I've generally decided most of what will be done and have been working gradually in the right direction. Things change, I'm afraid... for example, I'm now leaning toward 89mm or larger P&C, instead of the 87mm I'd planned to use.

With $3K, the ability to do all the machining yourself (and necessary skills), some planning and care you should be able to build a pretty strong engine.

I'd suggest you spend your first $$$s on Kas Kastner's tuning manuals (www.kaskastner.com) and Roger William's "How to Improve Triumph TR2/3/4" (Veloce Press, avail. at Amazon.com & elsewhere). Between these, you can get a lot of good ideas where to start and what to do. You might also think of this project in stages, with this being the core rebuild and further improvements planned for the future.

By the way, Williams' book "How to Restore Triumph TR 4/5/250" (or his separate volume "How to Restore Triumph TR 2/3/3A") has a well illustrated and organized, step by step rebuild. This section is not included in his "How to Improve..." books.

Your next $$$s might best be spent tearing down and cleaning up/inspecting the engine parts you've already got, to determine if all is usable or if any major items such as crank, head, block or conrods need replacement or significant repair work.

In a nutshell, your biggest improvements will come from:

1. More displacment. 87mm P&C set are about the same cost as stock 86mm, but are really only a small increase in overall displacement (2.1 liter to 2.2 liter, approx.). I've got a set of 87s on hand, but am considering using 89mm or larger in this particular motor instead. The larger bore has the added benefit of gaining a little more room around the exhaust valve (as Rob/trfortune has pointed out previously), which otherwise is a pretty tight area in the combustion chamber. 89mm do cost more, roughly double what 86/87mm would. 91 and 92mm are possible, but are a lot more costly because the block has to be machined for larger diameter cyl. sleeves.

2. An improved cam. In purely general comparison, the stock cam has about 244 degrees duration, most "street" improved cams have 260-270, some hotter ones are in the 280-290 range (I'm using a #149 grind with 282 degrees) and "full race" that would likely be quite unpleasant to use on the street are 300 degrees or more. There are many other factors to consider, besides duration, so spend some time choosing a cam. A regrind is not expensive, but will need to be hardened and at the very least new cam followers and springs, and possibly upgraded keepers and pushrods, are in order. New cam bearing will be needed, too.

By the way, how "hot" a cam is also relates to displacement, to some extent. The more displacment you've got, the "hotter" a cam that might be needed to give similar performance to smaller displacement with a milder cam.

3. Cyl. head improvements will make a big difference. These can include larger valves, especially on the exhaust side. But note that with a cam giving both longer duration and higher lift, stock-size valves might be adequate, especially on the intake side.

Might as well put in unleaded valve seats while you are at it. New exhaust valves, in particular, and all valve guides should be "unleaded" compatible, too, of course.

There's a lot of porting work that can be done, as well as milling the head to increase compression of the engine to a point that's "comfortable" for you (and allows use of gas you can easily get). This also involves reshaping and rebalancing the combustion chambers. Porting and combustion chamber work are well illustrated in Kas' books. These head improvements involve a lot of careful hand work, and can involve some welding too (on the exahust side). If unsure about doing it yourself, it might best be handed over to a pro, but that's pricey.

Part of the cyl. head improvement can come from the head gasket itself, by using the shim steel type (about $100, but needs to be matched to the cyl. bore you choose) to increase compression a bit without milling the head (or in combo with minimum milliing). This "trick" was used in production class race cars back in the day, borrowing this thinner gasket from the decompression kit that Triumph offered (that kit also used a spacer to lift the head and reduce compression, was intended for use in areas with poor quality gasoline).

We've discussed headers and exhaust systems ad nauseum elsewhere here on BCF, so I won't go into them any more than to say that I consider them to be part of the porting process. Whatever can be done to help exhaust gases out of the engine efficiently is a good thing and will improve performance. Keep in mind that there's a balance between exhaust system I.D. size/muffling and back-pressure. Some back pressure must be maintained for efficiency, and a bit more is needed for a street car than for a race car. And, of course, noise-wise you'll probably want to avoid tickets!

4. Careful selection of conrods is important. The originals were always the weak point in the TR engine, and now are 40 years old. Have them magnafluxed carefully before subjecting them to the added stresses of a strong running engine. Ideal would be to replace them completely with Carillo (or similar) conrods, but that would eat up a lot of your budget in a hurry.

The stock crankshaft, in good condition, is usable up to about 6000-6200 rpm, but revising the rear main seal is recommended ($150 for a seal kit). A stronger billet crankshaft would be ideal (up to 7200-8000 rpm) but would wipe out your budget entirely, by itself.

5. Ancilliary stuff includes carbs, ignition, cooling and oil.

A set of Weber DCOEs are great, but costly and a lot can be done with SUs, in particular, or ZS relatively cheaply.

Webers might be added later, since a new kit for your car would take about half your current budget.

With stock carbs, the original vacuum advance dizzie/ignition might be retained, if in good working order. With Webers at the very least the orig. dizzy needs to be modified to eliminate the vacuum advance, but a Mallory dual point or fully electronic, non-vac advance dizzy might be even better and give a stronger spark. A coil needs to match up with whatever is done (I.e., Lucas sport coil with orig. dizzy, Mallory sport coil with Mallory dual point, or Mallory high output coil with Mallory electronic dizzy/CD box.)

There is also the possiblity of adding a multi-strike capacitive discharge ignition box with either a modified orig. dizzy or a Mallory. Again, some of this can be done in stages.

All this beefing up of the engine means it will produce more heat, and likely will need improved cooling too. An electric fan and improved water pump, proper sleeved thermostat all come to mind. However, it also is part of the engine building process, being sure the block is very clean inside and possibly some improvement/matching of coolant passages, etc. At the expensive end of things is replacing the stock radiator with an aluminum one, both to improve cooling and reduce weight. At the very least, the original radiator should be checked and recored as needed, for maximum effect.

The oiling system is important for lubrication, of course, but also can provide some cooling benefits as well. For this reason I installed a 16 row oil cooler. However, some care is also needed to prevent over-cooling the oil, which leads to sludge and can cause lubrication problems. For that reason, I've got an oil thermostat installed.

Finally, the drive train and suspension are involved. I.e., how well power produced by the engine is transmitted to the rear wheels and how the traction/handling setup makes best use of it. This includes the flywheel, which can be lightened to allow the engine to spin up faster, but only to a point in a street car that sometimes needs to operate comfortably at lower rpms. Also, clutch, gearbox, driveshaft and diff all come into play. Gear ratios in the gearbox and diff are important to take best advantage of the power in the range it's being produced. Heck, even wheel and tire size play a role.

There are a lot of little engine building tricks noted in both Kaster and Williams' books. Pay particular attention to Kas' visit to Greg Solow's Engine Room in Santa Cruz, Calif. Greg is a master builder of the TR 4 cyl. motor. A lot of his tricks are mentioned in the book, but it sounds like he's still keeping a few of his building secrets (I can understand that).

When looking at these books, and perhaps some others such as those by Vizard, keep in mind the end use of your car. If it's to be a street car, some restraint with modifications is important or the car might be pretty unpleasant to drive around town or on the highway. If you think you might go auto-crossing or vintage racing, you'll want to consult the rules pertaining to any particular class, too, before starting to modify. Production classes, in particular, can be pretty restrictive. For example, this is where 87mm (actually 87.2mm) pistons came from... That's the largest "stock" oversize bore originally, as large as allowable in the production race and rally classes. On the other hand, as these cars have aged, most classes have been less restrictive about necessary replacement parts, such as improved conrods.

Hope this helps! Keep us posted about your project.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
OP
macino62

macino62

Jedi Hopeful
Offline
wow, alan. what an unbelievably informative post. i can't say enough thanks for typing all of that out, you offer great information. we'll see what way we go with this rebuild. (i might do a little experimental work of my own....)

Mike
 

trfourtune

Jedi Knight
Offline
just a few additional notes
(allan has covered most very well again),
definitely get the upgraded water pump from BFE (british frame and engine)or others.this is a must. even for an original car.
you do not have to go to carillo to get better rods for a "fast street" modified car. you can custom order from Crower or others (pauter,cunningham) for $800 instead of $1100 for carillo's. or you can use jaguar rods from a aj6 4.0 or 3.6 motor (late 80's-early 90's)which are longer and will require custom pistons from J.E. or other (Arias etc).i found a set for $200 and are completely up to the task (max build for pump gas 10:1 compression). completely do-able, but must supply to your machinist when he grinds and nitrides your crank.nitriding a must!
all aftermarket rods are basically custom so don't be afraid.
regular bad components to watch for: rocker shaft and rockers-usually badly worn-see jack drews for guy he uses to rebuild these.get the "upgraded" hardened shaft.
-cam wear and lifters. the lifters suck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/pukeface.gif. you need quality replacements-some cam grinders can re-surface and nitride.cam can be reground then hardened.hardening is a must.be very careful with cam break-in.
guys to talk to:BFE,Jack Drews,Greg Solow,Racetorations-Daryl Uprichard,Kas Kastner-see his site and general forum, and others.
have fun,get all the books Alan listed before doing anything else and read them twice-then talk to the "experts".
don't buy anything until you've done that first.You'll be glad you did.ps-jack drews does head porting at a reasonable cost if you're interested.DO NOT hog out the intake port(intake port bigger for street car makes LESS power!) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonono.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonono.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonono.gif . the shape in the right place is what makes power).
most power will come from a good head (porting). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazyeyes.gif
rob
 
T

Tinster

Guest
Guest
Offline
Great Post Alan !!

All those parts and repairs and this and that.
You scared me half to death.

Let's assume, for now, the Crypt Car will eventually
start.

I am pretty sure the Crypt Car engine will be in as
sorry condition as the rest of the car was.

What is the first thing you recommend I check to see
if I have a shot engine?

These past 9 months of fixing one thing and finding
5 more to fix was not a pleasant experience for me.

I don't want to get into a lengthy program to replace
the engine, one piece by one piece. I would rather trash
the whole thing and put in something reliable all at one time.

So what's your take? What big clue do I look for
to diagnose a shot engine?

FWIW. During the very brief 10 or 15 minute period
the Crypt Car functioned last month, the oil pressure attained 75 to 80 pounds. No clouds of smoke pour out
the exhaust pipe.

thanks,

dale
 

Brosky

Great Pumpkin
Offline
Dale your FWIW is worth more than you can imagine if you have no smoke and great oil pressure after running 10-15 minutes. That's when the pressure usually drops. No smoke on start up and during that run is a good sign also. You may not be as bad off as you think you are.
 

Alan_Myers

Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi Dale,

Paul is right, your engine has already passed its first major hurdle if it ran okay for 15 min. w/o smoke and holding reasonable oil pressure. It's not uncommon for an engine that's been sitting awhile to be a little difficult at first, to run a little rough or smoke a bit, so sounds like yours is in reasonably good shape.

The next test after putting a few miles on it (to let it settle in) would be a proper "leak down" compression test. You can buy the test equipment and do it yourself, or take it to a garage that does this sort of thing. The test looks for reasonable, even compression across all cylinders, and can also tell you if the rings or valves have any problems. I'm just guessing here but would think if the car has, say 110-120 lbs on each cyl., that's good, 120-140 even better. Some TR6 are lower compression by design, so even 90-110 lbs might be okay in certain engines. The exact specs vary a bit from model to model. (I've got a Honda motorcycle that's "only" got 140 lbs... should be 170 in that case... the carbs fould frequently as a result, probably because of weak valve springs or damaged valve seats).

The same test looks for significant variation across the cylinders, such as one cyl. that's consistently 10 or 15 lbs lower than the others. That could mean a problem.

Still, it would probably be worth just driving that way for a while, then rechecking, to see if it might just be some speck of carbon fouling a valve seat or a compression ring on a piston. These things often work themselves out, so one slightly low or dissimilar reading isn't an immediate crisis.

Next thing that can be done is to drop the oil pan and look inside it. You are looking for excessive sludge and metallic residue. Some is to be expected, a lot might mean a problem.

While the pan is off, carefully pull the main bearing caps and conrod end caps and use some plastigauge to check the clearance in these bearing surfaces. Remove these one at a time and only put them back in exactly the same orientation. In some cases, the fastening bolts cannot be reused, new ones must be purchased.

However, usually significant main bearing wear will show up in low oil pressure when the engine is fully warmed up and running at highway rpms. Even if the bearings show some wear, if the surface of the crankshaft is still reasonably good it's sometimes even possible to refresh only the bearing shells and get away with it (you do have to buy the correct size, which means measuring the journals very accurately... and for sort of thing, I'd try the King bearings with their single, thick bearing surface that can conform to some slight surface irregularities and might extend the life of an engine better than other bearings, which typically have thinner surface layers).

On TR6 it's very important to check for end-float of the crankshaft. This can be easily checked with a dial test indicator mounted on the front of the engine with the pin resting on the front of the crankshaft pulley. While keeping an eye on the dial, have someone fully operate the clutch, which will put strong forward pressure on the crankshaft. Release the clutch, and push against the pulley toward the rear of the car. Watch the dial indicator to measure the range of front and back motion of the crankshaft while doing this. This will show if there is excessive thrust bearing wear.

Check a manual, but I think .004" is about normal, .010" or more might be where I'd start to be concerned. If there is excessive wear, it's possible to replace the thrust bearings, too, from below without removing the engine from the car. Here again it's necessary to measure to choose the right thickness of thrust bearings. They come in standard and +.05" sizes, AFAIK.

It's very important to catch thrust bearing wear early on the TR 6 cyl. If they get too worn they have been known to drop right out and down into the oil pan, leaving the crankshaft and engine to knock directly against each other and do serious damage.

It would be most ideal to modify and improve the thrust bearings: one way is to machine the surfaces to accept a full-circle thrust bearing, instead of the original half-circle. Of course, this can only be done with the engine out of the car and fully disassembled. So, it's best to delay until it's time for a major overhaul.

Other possible indicators are noisy valves that won't stay in adjustment, strange and increasing noises from the engine, smell of anti-freeze from the exhaust pipe, certain oil or coolant leaks, oil in the coolant or coolant mixed with the oil, etc. However, don't judge an engine that's been sitting for a long time immediately. Put in fresh oil, warm it up and drive it 200 or 300 miles, change the oil and drive it some more. By 1500-2500 miles, you should have a better idea how good condition it's in, and if further work is needed.

If there is a relatively minor amount of coolant in the oil (or vice versa), a dose of Bars Stop Leak in the radiator might be all that's needed to keep the car on the road for another year or two.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
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