ZDDP Additive from Eastwood

[TheSearcherMan]

The articles I have read, and they are all online, too much zinc causes problems, it needs to be just the right amount. Also, I talked to Shell about Rotella last year. The way I remeber the conversation, the zinc was out, they had found something even better. The way I remember, the only Rotella with zinc was what mite be found in someones stock. What they were making then, they had taken the zine out. They also told me how to tell the difference, it was in the API rating, but I don't remeber what the zinc oil was, may have been SJ, just call them, they will gladly tell you. I would like to know what info someone has where Rotella still has zinc in it, my memory is not what it used to be.

 

[RonMacPherson]

The API(Automotive Petroleum Institute) took out ZDDP per EPA's request, along with nodding of heads from the American Car Manufacturers. They did that because if you have an oil burner, and that can occur with mileage and time and a few missed or delayed oil changes the ZDDP will attack the catalyst in the convertor.


The European Motor Oil Producers did NOT take ZDDP out of their oils. Now recently almost all European manufacturers are going the synthetic route which doesn't use ZDDP.

The additives that Rotella uses won't clog cats, it does have some anti-scuff additives but they are considered by the industry experts to not be as effective as ZDDP. Especially for flat tappet engines. That's why some oil manufacturers are coming out with a "Classic Car" formulation of oil which does include ZDDP.

 

[humanoid]

So what a couple of you are saying that if your car/engine is burning oil then it's a bad idea to use ZDDP because it will foul up the catalytic converter, correct? How does burning oil contribute to a bad converter? I assume the ZDDP doesn't get burned off and reacts with the catalyst?

 

[swift6]

there is just too much evidence out there that when the levels were lowered, the cam problems started on flat tappet cams.

Guess I missed that Art, can you amplify a bit ? I started hearing about lifter/cam problems oh, maybe 5 YEARS before they lowered the ZDDP levels in motor oil.

I read from a few sources that they started lowering the levels in the early-mid 1990's. Many oils still contain some ZDDP, but in now greatly reduced amounts. It seems that the lowering threshold was reached right around the turn of the century for our solid lifter engines. Affecting new products in engine rebuilds far more than older high mileage engines. Took a few years for causation to start being discovered. Much was blamed on inferior parts, which could be true and have added to the issue, and maybe even delayed figuring out the ZDDP part of the equation.

 

[Dave Russell]

Shawn,
I agree. The published ZDDP levels have changed almost monthly since this controversy started several years ago. It's even harder to know what to believe with the continuously varying manufacturers claims. I doubt if the controversy will ever end. I personally believe "better safe than sorry". What is a few dollars worth of "extra" protection worth when compared to a failed engine.
D

 

[RonMacPherson]

Correct, the zinc coats the catalyst and covers the matrix grid, doesn't let it get to the temperature it needs to "catalyze" the gasses.

But then our Triumphs don't come with catalytic convertors....

 

[foxtrapper]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]... there is just too much evidence out there that when the levels were lowered, the cam problems started on flat tappet cams.[/QUOTE]
I like how the story has morphed.

Some engine builders for NASCAR and other circletrack racing started having severe problems some years ago with tappet and camshaft failures. The sanctioning rules prohibit the use of rollers, so they run as extreme a camshaft as possible with flat tappets. It was identified finally as an oil problem, and corrected with the addition of zinc, bringing the oil back to older specs.

Now the story has morphed into wild claims about no production engines today having flat tappets (most do), and flat tappets failing everywhere in the automotive industry (no evidence exists to support this claim).

 

[Brooklands]

When I was picking up Fagin in the shop last week, my mechanic showed me two recent engine rebuilds that had severe cam lobe wear and he attributed it to the ZDDP situation. I added a bottle of the ZDDP additive in the oil change. It won't hurt a catalytic converter in my Triumph, but may make the engine last longer. To me, it was worth the $10 investment.

 

[swift6]

But then our Triumphs don't come with catalytic convertors....

Without starting a whole "what is a real TR/Triumph" debate in this thread... TR7's and TR8's had catalytic converters. Our MG brethren with late model MGB's also have catalytic convereters. If emissions equipment laws are enforced then these cars are still required to have them. The zinc doesn't "kill" the catalytic converter, though it does reduce the service life of the catalytic converter. One of the main reasons cited for reduccing ZDDP levels was to extend catalytic converter life from 100,000 miles to 150,000 miles.

 

[Brosky]

Cam/lifter failure without the proper oil/additives is something that my machine shop sees a great deal of when asked to do a forensic autopsy on a dead engine.

That is why he uses the Rotella Triple T for break in and Synthetics after.

 

[swift6]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]... there is just too much evidence out there that when the levels were lowered, the cam problems started on flat tappet cams.

I like how the story has morphed.

Some engine builders for NASCAR and other circle-track racing started having severe problems some years ago with tappet and camshaft failures. The sanctioning rules prohibit the use of rollers, so they run as extreme a camshaft as possible with flat tappets. It was identified finally as an oil problem, and corrected with the addition of zinc, bringing the oil back to older specs.

Now the story has morphed into wild claims about no production engines today having flat tappets (most do), and flat tappets failing everywhere in the automotive industry (no evidence exists to support this claim).
[/QUOTE]

It was more than just circle track and NASCAR. The whole hot-rod industry was having issues. Especially high-lift solid lifter cams with the higher spring pressures. Our market is much smaller and the effect took longer to materialize to LBC fans because of that. AFAIK, this is almost entirely an aftermarket issue. I have heard no industry claims from new manufacturers having issues in any of the material that I have read. Most new engines AFAIK use roller/hydraulic lifters not solid. Which production engines are you referring to?

 

[RonMacPherson]

Ah, but the life of "early" cats was only 50K. Remember replacing a number of VW and Porsche convertors.

 

[TheSearcherMan]

I am sure Rotella is an excellent oil, and you machinist is top notch. However, it isn't because of the zinc. I could not find their MSDS, however I did copy this from their website; "Is Shell Rotella? T motor oil going to have less zinc in 2007?


Yes. The API CJ-4 (next generation) Shell ROTELLA? T multigrade motor oil will have a slightly lower level of zinc than the current API API CI-4 PLUS Shell ROTELLA? T. Zinc is typically used as part of the anti-wear system within the oil. However, less zinc in API CJ-4 oils compared with API CI-4 PLUS oils does not mean increased wear. In fact, wear protection is one of the key areas where the API CJ-4 category provides improvements over API CI-4 PLUS. (Other areas include; oxidation stability and soot control). The new API CJ-4 Shell ROTELLA? T multigrade motor oil also meets the requirements of earlier API performance categories such as API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, as well as others, and can be used in engines specifying any of these performance categories."

 

[TheSearcherMan]

Personally I believe in a slightly modified street engine, the problem is not, and has never been the oil. It is suppliers trying to make a quick buck by not properly hardening certain parts, and not being willing to do any quality control. I can attest to this in regards to some Triumph parts. Also, people who do not understand engineering can now come up with a part that is not properly engineered. I suspect most of the Trimph cam faliures are due to soft steel and bad engineering, not oil. Last year I traded in a flat tappet pick up truck with 240k miles, didn't add any oil between changes, to get that kind of mileage, and have those results, the oil had to be sufficent for the job.

 

[bobh]

Mickey,

The article in your link was written in 1992. That's at least a couple of generations of oil old. I would not bet my engine on comments from 1992.

The Hot Rod article is more recent. Although a quick scan of the article didn't reveal a publish date there is reference to the 2007 change over of the diesel oils. Diesels came under tigheter pollution restrictions beginning in 2007. (VW stopped selling their diesel powered cars in the US as a result of the new restrictions.) The acceptable API Service ratings referred to in the article are now pretty much gone from the shelves. I stopped seeing CI-4 and CI-4 PLUS early last year. I would guess this article is from 2005 or 2006.


https://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

For those of you who haven't read the article it is a worth while read. For those of you who are breaking in a new cam "Are you feeling lucky?" I'm with Bill on this one. When you combine the expense, downtime and general frustration associated with a cam and or tappet failure. The cost of a little extra protection is very reasonable.

I do think the companies selling ZDDP are exploiting a wave of concern within the car hobby. The uninformed will buy the stuff without reaserching the need. McGuivers will never buy anything and the others fall somewhere in between. My take on all of this is it's necessary for break-in. Beyond that I agree with Pauls machine shop. Use synthetic.
Of course my opinion is based on what I've read on the internet. So it could all be baloney.
BOBH

 

[swift6]

Ah, but the life of "early" cats was only 50K. Remember replacing a number of VW and Porsche convertors.

I thought about that on the way into the shop this morning Ron. I meant to ammend the post indicating the 50k service life of the cats that did come on Triumphs. Good catch on ya though! :thumbsup:

 

[Brosky]

Searcher,

There is Rotella T and there is Rotella Triple T.

Triple T levels are what they should be.

 

[TR4]

Where can you find Rotella Triple T? I have looked on the intertnet and was not successful finding a retailer.

 

[bluemiata90]

For those who what further information on the validity of using ZDDP in older engine and additional research information. In this months Hemmings News Magazine, there is an article on the myths of ZDDP. In this authors opinion, it seems that ZDDP is needed mainly with newly rebuilt older engines and racing engines. It's a very interesting article and for me at least cleared up some confusion.

 

[Brosky]

I bought mine from the machine shop, but I've seen it at interstate Mobil stations and other truck stops. Probably because it is big with diesel guys.