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Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recorders

  • Thread starter Deleted member 3577
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Another great reason to drive old English sports cars!!!
 
I don’t think we’re looking at some Orwellian “1984” situation here.

I think there still limited on the amount of data they can record over a given time. Once that time has lapsed the data that came in first is overwritten. Techies call it FIFO or First In First Out. Likewise this data isn’t downloaded in “real time” to some deep dark CIA computers under Mt. Rushmore.

Although I suppose it could be adapted the same way GM’s On-Star tracks your vehicle’s mileage (like my wife’s 05 Envoy), diagnostics and send it to you via email. I get an email summery on my wife’s new Envoy and it lets me know when I need to start thinking about my next oil change or brake servicing. It’ll also let me know if it has any engine warning error codes that need to be fixed addressed. Great feature – because lord knows my wife will never tell me about the blinking engine light until it’s too late. (Go ahead ask me how I know?)

While the buffer/memory of the EDR systems mentioned in this limited I’ve read about a little gadget, that you can use to attach to just about any OBDII outlet that can store gobs of data. Really popular if you’ve got outrageous premiums as a result of an over zealous teenage driver in your house, with a sketchy driving history.

But again unless you’re vehicle is equipped with an uplink of some sort or another the only data that can be retrieved will be recent and ain’t going to tell them that you where speeding the week before.

As mentioned in the last link – about the lady that was facing some pretty bad punishment had it not been for the data in her EDR as all the other evidence was pointing at her being at fault. Sure it could be used incriminate but if you’re a good driver it might well clear you of any wrong doing too.

But hey, I’d never make someone put it in their classic or pre-EDR vehicles.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

Bret said:
Sure it could be used incriminate but if you’re a good driver it might well clear you of any wrong doing too.
Click to expand...
Quite true Bret....

It doesn't frighten me so much as it sort of creeps me out.

Mr. WTN
Yes sir?
What were you doing at 85 mph & full opposite lock?
Well...I was....a, Ah..??? /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif
That's what we thought!.....Take his belt, shoe laces & put him in with the other ones.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

That Bill you cited is not a law...sing it with me...."I am a Bill, yes I'm only a Bill..."

I don't see the big deal here. the info is not broadcast or remotely downloadable and if something happens, I would prefer to have the issues decided based on the facts, not people's inaccurate versions of the facts.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

lawguy said:
Sing it with me....
Click to expand...
Trust me.....You don't want me singing anything!
lawguy said:
based on the facts
Click to expand...
Well......There are MY facts & there are the facts of people in positions of power. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

To go along with the FIFO bit, while they can't see if you were speeding last week. They can see what you were doing just before an accident. Including speed, braking effort at the pedal, elapsed time of braking, air bag deployment, vehicle speed at the time of airbag deployment etc... On vehicles with fly by wire throttle and steering they can see all of that as well.

From that information, accident scenes can be more accurately reconstructed. Especially if several of the cars involved have information that can be downloaded. Great if you acted correctly or are not at fault. Pretty damning if you are at fault. As the radar systems for accident avoidance (like Lexus is using) become more prevalent, they can show what other cars were doing in those last few seconds before impact as well.

Like any technology though, whether its seen as good or evil is all in the implementation.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

The one problem that I see in the bill allowing to de-activate the system says that the info is owned by the owner of the car, except in some circumstances. One of them being...
"(2) In response to an order of a court having jurisdiction to issue the order."

That sounds like someone getting a warrant for this info. Like an insurance company. While I agree that the info may exonerate someone, it can also point to their guilt. This is a slippery slope we're entering. I personnaly don't want this info to be available to anyone, even if it may benefit me. The darn thing about it is that I'm driving around in a '96 Saturn which has one of the boxes in it, and I don't have the option to turn it off. GM originally installed these systems to get some feedback on their safety systems in their cars. When I bought the Saturn new in '96, I was never told that such a thing existed. I only found out about it last year. If I had known it was in there, I just might have bought another car. I sincerly hope that none of this stuff will be abused, but I know deep down inside that it will be.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

I agree, We are dealing with a variation to Murphy's Law!! If it can...It will!
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

Well, any car with OBDII (96 or newer) has a form of data capture. But it's not quite what you're talking about. When a DTC is set (when your check engine light comes on) usually the car will record "freeze frame" data. things like engine rpms,coolant temp, vehicle speed, what gear the trans is in, and a ton of other perameters to aid in the diag of what went wrong.
But it can also be a forensic clue. Like the kid that had his Celica towed into our shop with bent valves. Says he was riding down the road, about 40 miles an hour and missed a shift.
Well the freeze frame showed that he was actually travelling at about 70 mph, and had the engine revved about 1000 rpm past redline.
Hmmmmmm.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Well the freeze frame showed that he was actually travelling at about 70 mph, and had the engine revved about 1000 rpm past redline. [/QUOTE]

I plead the fifth!
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

martx-5 said:
The one problem that I see in the bill allowing to de-activate the system says that the info is owned by the owner of the car, except in some circumstances. One of them being...
"(2) In response to an order of a court having jurisdiction to issue the order."

That sounds like someone getting a warrant for this info. Like an insurance company. While I agree that the info may exonerate someone, it can also point to their guilt. This is a slippery slope we're entering. I personnaly don't want this info to be available to anyone, even if it may benefit me. The darn thing about it is that I'm driving around in a '96 Saturn which has one of the boxes in it, and I don't have the option to turn it off. GM originally installed these systems to get some feedback on their safety systems in their cars. When I bought the Saturn new in '96, I was never told that such a thing existed. I only found out about it last year. If I had known it was in there, I just might have bought another car. I sincerly hope that none of this stuff will be abused, but I know deep down inside that it will be.
Click to expand...
I have to admit it Art - I find your comment a little puzzling. As one of the links indicated in one of the examples this system saved a person from some serious fines and possible lengthy jail time. While all the other evidence and witness testimony pointed a condemning finger at this person, the "data" showed different. Are you saying you’d rather go to jail than be proven innocent by this information?

The way I look at it is when you have an accident, every vehicle involved is considered evidence and will get searched & thoroughly gone over. If you get into a wreck on the public roads – the police can go through all of the vehicles without a "warrant".

As for never being told that your 96 had this feature I don’t think this particular usage was really foreseen at the time. But you say if you’d of known of this when purchasing a car you might have gone elsewhere. Well in 1996 unless you where looking at a used – all new vehicles had OBDII.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

I agree with you, Bret [edit] to an extent- the evidence the car provides should be available, but under the same protections that are available for gathering other evidence. The simple happening of an accident is not enough to justify a warrantless search, but if there is indication of a crime, a warrant is quite easy to obtain. However, 99.99999% of car accidents are dealt with in the civil law context. A subpoena for the information is also easily obtained...I can send out one right now on any of my cases.[/edit]

I don't do car accident cases anymore, but I have done car, semi and train accident cases in the past. I am not concerned about the data recorder potentially having errors. The error rate will be far less than what is usually used to reconstruct accidents: eyewitness accounts, skid marks, the place the cars came to rest, etc. I'll take the help of a data recorder any time.

In one train accident case I had, the event data recorder verified my client's version of events (the engineer) and showed he was traveling the proper speed, had the proper lights on and blew the horm properly before a crossing. If not for that recorder, it would have been up to who does the jury believe. I'll take objective information.

Of course, the data will be only one piece of the puzzle and any error rate or demonstrated error will have to be considered when the information obtained is evaluated. I'm telling you, this is no big deal.

Ans as for the Bill- HR 5609, it has been referred to the House Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade and Consumer Protection. That was back in June of 2006. I doubt its going anywhere anytime soon.

https://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.05609:
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

I have to put in my .02

I believe that consumers should know what they have purchased. If a data recorder is in the vehicle it should be disclosed and further the type and amount that is recorded.

My new car actually changes its service intervals based on how hard it is driven. This being the case, I am curious as to how much information is stored.

Patrick
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

Most of us on this sight will know more about the car and the technology in it on any given new car than the salesperson selling it. The salesperson is usually the worst person to ask about the specific technology in a car as they usually only know the approved talking points that increase sales and nothing more.

In the case of OBD II in the '96 Saturn. The saleperson probably didn't even know what OBD II was so why would he/she tell you about it. If anything he/she might have know that it actually meant 'On Board Diagnostics' but wouldn't have known what it meant beyond that, how it worked, or any other specifics about it.

One of the many reasons I was sorely disappointed with a short stint in new car sales last year.

If you want to know what the technology on a car does and how it does it. Speak to the service manager, not anyone from sales. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

That is a good point.

But (of course), my Service Manager is at a loss with all the gagetry in my new car. There most common answer is that they will check to see if the computer needs any updates.

Patrick
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

GB1 said:
I have to put in my .02

I believe that consumers should know what they have purchased. If a data recorder is in the vehicle it should be disclosed and further the type and amount that is recorded.

My new car actually changes its service intervals based on how hard it is driven. This being the case, I am curious as to how much information is stored.

Patrick
Click to expand...

The due diligence of discovering what technology is in an automobile is up to the consumer. The technology in question in this thread is Federally mandated. The manufacturers have to include it.

The info is out there, they don't/can't hide it, but you won't find it in any marketing materials either.

On a similar note... We just got a new cable box (HD upgrade). Some of the technology in this box not only includes data recorders (it has two) but the cable company can track how often we watch TV, what channels etc... All without you knowing about it. The only reason I know just how much the cable company can see about my habits from their end is because I asked the tech on the other end of the phone line while he remotely went through a set up procedure on my TV/cable box while I just sat and watched it all happen.

BTW, if you have a cell phone, your provider can track all your phone habits and more as well. Especially if you have a phone that is a year old or less since they all have GPS systems now since it is required for 911 Emergency Response. Now, you don't need to know where you are if you need help, your phone already does. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

It all seems pretty Orwellian doesn't it? Like I said before, the only thing determining if technology is good or evil is how it is implemented.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

GB1 said:
That is a good point.

But (of course), my Service Manager is at a loss with all the gagetry in my new car. There most common answer is that they will check to see if the computer needs any updates.

Patrick
Click to expand...

That's not entirely surprising either I guess. Technology in automobiles is advancing very quickly. It can be hard to keep up.

I've met a few service managers that try to stay as informed as they can. They also tell me that it can be quite time consuming to do so.
 
Re: Your car could be a snitch....Event Data Recor

Gotta love some of the data that the OBD stores. My '97 Saturn's service manual documented all the information stored. Some of the ones I found interesting were:

How many miles have elapsed since it detected a fault with the air bags and turned the warning light on.

Whether the front seat occupants' seat belts were fastened if the air bags deployed.

How many miles have elapsed with the check engine light on.
 
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