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Welding question-Aluminum shroud

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RVMAN

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The PO of my BJ8 replaced the LH side of the front shroud (from the upper valance to about half way along the hood). He didn't weld it, but "lapped and riveted" the repair and smoothed the fit with body filler.Although it is hard to detect I have thought that when I start body work this winter I want to have this undone and welded in a proper manner. QUESTION: should I bother? Can I do it myself? Is it Expensive to have a body shop cut/fit/smooth the two joints (o/a 12 inch on shroud, 6 inch at valance). Any thoughts/suggestions/opinions would be helpful.
 
Welding any largely flat panel is hard. When it's aluminum it's even more difficult. If you're really set on getting it welded, perhaps you should take some pictures of it to local body shops and discuss it with them. Though aluminum is becoming a more common material in cars these days, I'll bet a lot of shops don't have technicians who can weld it.

Prior to buying my welder I used the dimple tools to make "below flush" rivets. Properly covered the joints are hard or impossible to detect. I think this is really a question you need to answer yourself based on the estimates the shops give you versus your desire to do away with the lap joint.
 
Rvman, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif "Can I do it myself"--Loud and clear NO! and you will be required to find a shop skilled in aluminum welding this probably means a well known restoration shop that deals with Porche and early Jaguar bodies such as the XK140, as a rule regular body shops do not have the expertise required to properly weld aluminum there are probably some exceptions but they will be few and far between--FWIW---Keoke

RVman, I just realised you are in Florida,why not contact Paul Tsikuris at; rosscreek@aolcom and see if he can do the welding for you.
 
The suggestions to seek out a specialist shop in aluminum are very sound. You do not "weld" aluminum you "heli-arch" it (different machine and different process). Be sure you are dealing with a shop that has great experience with working aluminum. The worked aluminum expands very easily and needs to be heated and shrunk to maintain the proper dimensions. Hence the reason your body man decided to revit instead of "welding."

GregJ
 
Hello Rvman,
I am not familiar with the panel, but is it an option to totally replace the whole panel rather than do a repair?
Greg, by the way there are many welding methods for aluminium, and Heli-arc is only one, others are MMA(stick), gas and MIG.
Incidentally, in the UK it is more common to use Argon rather than Helium for TIG welding. I once watched a body man at Aston Martin butt weld two aluminium panels together just with his gas torch and no filler rod. One point about welding aluminium is that old panels are much harder to weld than new.

Alec
 
That's a good point about the composition of aluminum. I had read somewhere about the differences in the old alloy sheets vs. the new materials.

For your triva files: the term "Heli-Arc" is a trademark name owned by Linde for the process of TIG welding aluminum. It's usually just us old guys who have even heard it.
 
Hi Piman, You watched an expert the technique you were fortunate enough to see is known as a hammer weld and doing it on aluminum is an art.---Keoke /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yesnod.gif
 
I work for an insurance co and I'm in body shops on a daily basis. Any shop that is repairing current model Jags, some Hondas can probably weld the shroud for you. Most Jag owners are just as picky about the repairs performed as we are about our cars. I would also ask an insurance adjuster in your area about the local body shops and who can perform what and their level of skill.
 
No way Beaglbut, Entirely different types of metal and they will use filler to obtain the finish.---Keoke
 
I beg to differ. The key is the research and questioning of those shops that do fit into the category. Many of the tech in the shops I go to (and I cover a 4500 square mile area) are car guys and love doing something other thanjust bolting on another fender.
 
Yeah Beaglbut I can hear the results of the recearch now; "Can you weld the shroud on my Austin Healey? Response YOUR WHAT!!!----Keoke /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
RVMAN - I don't think anyone aksed if you can weld or if you have the tools etc. If you have some skills, welding aluminmum is not a big msytery and as esoteric as we are lead to believe. Although I am not great at it, I have learned to weld aliuminum with success. It takes practice and some studying.

So can you do it yourself? Ohers have learned how so why can't you?

If you have the tools, first practice, practice, practice.
Bruce
 
I agree with Bruce. Welding aluminum is a very different experience but it is acievable by someone with the proper tools and a bit of practice. Last year I had quite a bit of repair neede to both my front and rear shrouds. Actually had to rplace the area between the right rear reflector and taillight down below the bumper slot and over to the left of the boot opening radius. COntemplated calling a mobile welder but had no direct referrals so you do not know who you will get. I have a mig welder and another club member had a conversion kit for it to weld aluminum. ALl this is is a clean gun liner and a pure argon bottle. Then I got an all purpose aluminum wire and set off to practice weld. Being an amature and having both panels off the car I was able to wok on a horizontal plane. Got some 26 gauge steel from the Home Depot HVAC dept and formed them behind the repair area. THis eliminated the problem of the material disappearing if it got too hot. Basically just puddled the material between the shroud and the repair panel with the steel supporting the weld until it cooled. You have to run the wire very fast though or it will stick and bind up in the gun. A fair amount of time was spend grinding the excess off but it was a great feeling to accomplish something so intimidating.

If you have access to the tools I would suggest trying it.

Steve
BJ7 BN2
 
Thanks everybody for the advice and info. I have been itching to try my hand at welding again (I only have six months probation left to go on my restraining order from the fire marshal) but will check with Paul Tsikuris before I make any rash decisions. Just as an aside, did you know that concrete would explode if you laid the torch down on it for any length of time? Go figure.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
 
Hi Steve,
Make sure you have proper eye protection. There are special filters for welding alum. Since alum burns green the standard faceshield filters don't block much light. A couple of tricks to use to keep the wire from binding while MIGing. Use the next size larger tip. I.E. if wire is .030", use an .035" tip. Keep the gun about a 1/4" farther away from the work than you would with steel and flow more gas. That should let you set the wire speed slower and gain a little control.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just as an aside, did you know that concrete would explode if you laid the torch down on it for any length of time? Go figure.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
As an aside, concrete always has some moisture in it. Get it hot enough & the steam pressure will blow out chunks.
D
 
Hi Rvman,
Once the fire marshal gives you the thumbs up, get some fire bricks to weld on. No snap, crackle, pop. I've got a stack in my garage that I lay out on a table when needed.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hello Rvman,
I am not familiar with the panel, but is it an option to totally replace the whole panel rather than do a repair?
Alec

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Alec,
On this side of the pond a new front shroud goes for around $4,000 US. Kind of hard to accept.
D
 
Hello Dave,
thank you for that, I have noticed that we use a different nomenclature for body parts this side of the world. I was assuming some inner flat(ish) panel around the engine bay or radiator.

Alec
 
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