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Water Free Coolants?

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Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
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I've pulled the heads off two v-12s in the last few months and was shocked at the amount of corrosion damage to the head gaskets.

On both engines, the head gaskets literally crumbled away for all areas that were not sandwiched between the head and block.

A couple of years ago, I saw a program on "Shade Tree Mechanic" on TNN that talked about using 100% Propylene Glycol coolant without water to minimize corrosion in aluminum block engines.

Does anyone have any experience using coolants other than Ethylene Glycol? How about suggestions on preventing the corrosion associated with 50-50 water mixtures?

Prestone Low Tox Antifreeze/Coolant is Propylene Glycol based, but the label still calls for mixing with water.

What do you think?
 
I think the key is changing your coolant every couple of years!!
thirsty.gif
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gary Lloyd:
That too!! I heard that if you take all the impurities out of water, it will not conduct electricity!! Could that be true??<hr></blockquote>

It was true in my HS physical science class. That was a neat experiment. We first went through the distillation process, then we did resistance testing on various salinities. It was really nifty.

I have been curious about the no water coolants as well. Not only for less corrosion, but also for the extended service intervals it offers. I am already using Synthetic Oil and a K&N filter in the Escort, and have thought about experimenting with the no water stuff as well. I like the thought of the less waste. Plus by testing in the 'scort, I won't feel as funny putting it into the Bugeye I want.

This is the manufacturer that I have been most looking at:
https://www.lubespecialist.com/coolant/coolant.htm
But I haven't heard much about it in smaller engines.


MattP
 
i have been told that it is NOT good to run coolant other than in a 50/50 mix, that it is not the water which causes problems but air getting in the system. thus the importance of proper maitenance.
 
Mineral water will protect from buildup inside of the coolant system. 50/50 is still best but you can reduce your mixture a bit with the mineral. I learned in engine repair that one manufacturer requires distlled water only.

You may also look into Dex-Cool. I don't know much about it, but most of the cars I saw at the Philly auto show had the red stuff.
 
Duh I meant distlled water not mineral water...D'oh
 
Another thing to consider is the reason that glycol based coolants require mixing with water is simple.... They aren't coolants! you see, the glycol substance does little to cool the engine, the main reason for it's presence is to lubricate the water pump, to prevent freezing, and reduce corrosion. so running coolant without water is BAD. I normally try to run as little as I think I can get away with, that is, in the winter I run about 30% anti-freeze and 70% water, but I live in Florida. During the summer, I run just water, and stuff called water wetter, basically the water wetter serves two functions, lubrication, and reducing the surface tension of the water, increasing heat transfer.

The components of you're engine are another area of consideration. If you have an engine with ANY magnesium components that come in contact with coolant, my suggestion is this: get a bigger radiator, and run about 65% glycol based coolant. the reason is simple, magnesium is so sensetive to corrosion that it will pit, and eventualy fail, simply from th oxygen in the water, the glycol helps reduce the likelyhood of this.

Tony
 
Note that distilled water won't stay distilled in a cooling system environment with iron, aluminum, copper, etc. in contact with the water.

Tap water will either be slightly corrosive or slightly scale-forming, depending on the exact chemistry. Our local water supplier tries (and most likely most water suppliers try) to keep it slightly scale-forming because they they don't want corrosion in their system. This only applies at "room temperature", not at engine temperature. In either case, neither corrosion nor scale make for good performance. Best thing is distilled or softened water with an anti-freeze containing a corrosion inhibitor. That way, one doesn't get scale or corrosion and one gets the thermal conductivity of water. In addition to lowering the freezing temperature, anti-freeze will raise the boiling point.

I read the link listed above on waterless coolant. They use propylene glycol (plus additives) rather than ethylene glycol found in traditional anti-freeze. The propylene glycol has a higher boiling point than water, "allowing" the engine to run hotter and "get better efficiency." Propylene glycol won't have as good heat transfer as water, so it will run hotter. By running hotter, one may get better gas milage, but shorter valve and piston life. I'd rather pay for gas than valves and pistons, thank you.

My thoughts.
cheers.gif

John, BN4
 
All the opinions have merit and are interesting. I have another data point that should be of interest to Jaguar series 3 drivers and perhaps others. During the past 8 years, I have encountered severe corrosion to series 3 Jags on the head studs at the point where the threads meet the block material in the inner cooling galley of the block. In every case the engine had been in service in areas where antifreeze was not required because of year round climate. (South Florida and Arizona) In the Arizona Jag, the corrosion had eaten through a stud and it had let go with catostropic results.
I am convinced the severe corrosion was the result of pure water with no antifreeze for periods of time. Dont overlook the lubrication contribution of glycol or coolant additive products. It is important, particularly when cell action due to metallic differences is possible. When I rebuild a series 3 block I always remove and check the condition of the head studs. Best regards,
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by youngsmith:
[QB]Another thing to consider is the reason that glycol based coolants require mixing with water is simple.... They aren't coolants! you see, the glycol substance does little to cool the engine, the main reason for it's presence is to lubricate the water pump, to prevent freezing, and reduce corrosion. so running coolant without water is BAD.<hr></blockquote>

Tony;
Gotta disagree with you on this..
First off, I live in Texas.. we got more "hot" than "cold".. but when it does get cold, it gets really cold (for Texas).
Back in '68 I started working as a mechanic in a Datsun dealership.. when doing valve jobs, etc. on Aluminum heads, I noticed a good amount of the white corrosion that's caused by the water "half" of a 50/50 glycol mix.. not to mention the rust in the cast iron block.. and this was on cars that were only a year or two old!
I started using 100% anti-freeze in my cars (later, a new '70 Datsun 510, a '74 Toyota Landcruiser, my "old" '53 Jag XK120 DHC, and now, in addition to those cars, my '62 Volvo 122S and my '71 Volvo P-1800E).
The P-1800E is the only car under 100K miles, the '62 Volvo 122S is an "unknown", but I have put over 150K on it, all the rest are 200K+ except the Datsun which is past 300K.
I don't have corrosion problems, I don't have overheating problems "everyone" claims I should have, and, contrary to the rumors, pure anti-freeze does not freeze.. at least not in our cold weather (which has been as low as minus five-- but "normally" can drop into the mid-teens for overnight lows).
The "upside" is, I rarely have to replace water pumps. I did have to replace one in the Toyota LC, but it has a '67 Cadillac 429cid engine I installed in '78 and the water pump I replaced was the original to the engine pump.. and I had added nearly 100K miles to it after the "conversion"..
For those who continue to mix their coolant, I suggest strongly that only distilled water be used.. that, in my opinion, is the second best thing to do.
As noted above, all my cars are near thirty years old or older.. "modern" econo-boxes with their one inch thick plastic radiators may not get the same results with a 100% mix as I do..
The "downside" to Propolene Glycol is one's coolant system MUST be 100% free of any old ethalene glycol as mixing it, I heard, does bad things to the cooling system. It also requires a special tester and MUST be changed every two years.. I run my ethalene glycol until... It gets "changed" when a radiator hose unexpectedly expires or during normal maintenence of replacing the hoses when I observe their condition is deteriorating.. usually no less than five years.
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael J.:
[QB]I've pulled the heads off two v-12s in the last few months and was shocked at the amount of corrosion damage to the head gaskets.

On both engines, the head gaskets literally crumbled away for all areas that were not sandwiched between the head and block.<hr></blockquote>

Michael J;
When I worked at a VW/Subaru dealership, Subaru was experiencing the same headgasket problem.. The "culprit" turned out to be Prestone Antifreeze.. Apparently the additives ised tended to "eat" the Subaru's headgaskets. The "fix" was to either use the Subaru antifreeze or use Peak brand. This solved the problem.. I've used Peak for twenty-three years now.. prior to that, I was a confirmed Prestone user.
In the late '70's early '80's, when antifreeze prices jumped up from $2 per gallon to nearly $20, I made the mistake of buying Zerex with "stop-leak".. within six months I had to remove my radiators and heater cores to get them "unplugged" as the "stopleak" corked every tube in the heater core and half of them in the radiator.. I switched to Peak (for the reason stated in another post on this thread) and have had no problems since.
 
i was just thinking to myself that a cooling system relies on pressure (psi) to work properly. if you run straight anti freeze wouldnt that change the psi in the cooling system? if you used 50/50 would it be a different psi? same for a 60/40 mix?
my sovereign has a 15psi coolant cap. is that spec for a 50/50 mix? what about aeration of the liquid if there is a little air in the system? how much more air can be introduced into distilled water vs. straight anti freeze? or 50/50, 60/40? just a thought.
another thing: fwiw, my dad used to put a cup of plain white vinegar in with the coolant and water to retard any corrosion, and formation of scale. i do the same, never had a problem with any of my cars. been doing it to my vehicles for 22 years now. seems crazy and insane, but it works. i have clean cooling systems.

[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: XJRpilot ]</p>
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by XJRpilot:
i was just thinking to myself that a cooling system relies on pressure (psi) to work properly. if you run straight anti freeze wouldnt that change the psi in the cooling system? if you used 50/50 would it be a different psi? same for a 60/40 mix?
my sovereign has a 15psi coolant cap. is that spec for a 50/50 mix? what about aeration of the liquid if there is a little air in the system? how much more air can be introduced into distilled water vs. straight anti freeze? or 50/50, 60/40? just a thought.
another thing: fwiw, my dad used to put a cup of plain white vinegar in with the coolant and water to retard any corrosion, and formation of scale. i do the same, never had a problem with any of my cars. been doing it to my vehicles for 22 years now. seems crazy and insane, but it works. i have clean cooling systems.<hr></blockquote>

XJRPilot;
I don't think so.. PSI is the measurement of the level of heat caused expansion of the fluid in a contained space.. The more viscous "straight" antifreeze would be, in my estimation, subject to the same laws of physics as water, while one may expand (build pressure) quicker than the other, the function of the radiator cap is to "relieve" that pressure once it reaches the "pre-set" level.. regardless of the fluid used, mostly to protect the cooling system from bursting under extream pressures.
Besides, my XK120 DHC has a four pound cap.. that roughly adds about eight degrees to water's 212 degree boiling point. I cannot comment with any accuracy what the "boiling point" of straight antifreeze is, but is is generally accepted (advertised) that it is higher than straight water.
Pressure caps just "raise" the boiling point of water so the car's temps can run in the area of 200-220 degrees without "Boiling Over".. some run as high as 240-250 degrees, depending on the car and the radiator cap... All of my cars have 160 degree(F) T-Stats for the summer, 180's in the winter. Several of my cars have 12 to 14 pound caps.. I'd still rather keep the temps down..
Unfortunately those folks with "modern" cars must use the 195 (or higher) T-Stats for their ECU's to efficiently operate the various electronics fitted to these cars' engines.. Carbs aren't so picky.
I don't know that the "mix" (or lack of) of anti-freeze/water's boiling point is changed enough one way or another to make a difference in the "Boil Over" level. Hot is hot on the temp gauge.
Any air in a coolant systen should be "purged" once the engine is up to operating temp, T-Stats open full, and the coolant has "cycled" thru the system a couple of times. I've not noticed any problens with the agitation created in the system. In looking into the radiator's filler neck, I can see good flow where the ends of the horizontal tubes are visable. Those that have vertical tubes in the radiators, I don't seen and "clogged" openings. I figure that says something, Right?
Adding the vinagar is good for "scouring" the system as it is an "acid" (I think I remember my HS Chemistry correctly)..I trust you flush the system on a regular basis to allow the "removed" scale to be extracted from the cooling system. And eventual build up could start clogging the cooling tubes, thus reducing the radiators capasity to effectively cool your Jag properly.
BTW I have clean cooling systems, as well.. Water is the "killer" of all "iron based" metals... ain't too healthy on aluminum, either.
 
by all means, i do "flush" on a regular basis.
yearly as a matter of fact. never had a problem.
i guess the vinegar keeps the scale from building up. i remember a friend who had a 78 toyota that had such a scale and sediment problem, it wore down the blades of his water pump impeller, and clogged his rad. we had a laugh. car never overheated, and ran fine. very lucky for him.
 
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