Value Premium for a Le Mans Kit-Equipped 100

[Bob_Spidell]

... ALL 640 100M cars were touched by the guys at The Cape in Warwick.

Hence the prestigious bend in the front X-brace. They were supposed to pull the engine to change the cam, but when Geoff wasn't around ...

According to the Concours guys, there are some documented Ms without the bend, meaning Geoff was probably watching (should add another $10K or so to the value*).

* (half) kidding

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

... ALL 640 100M cars were touched by the guys at The Cape in Warwick.

Hence the prestigious bend in the front X-brace. They were supposed to pull the engine to change the cam, but when Geoff wasn't around ...

According to the Concours guys, there are some documented Ms without the bend, meaning Geoff was probably watching (should add another $10K or so to the value*).

* (half) kidding

"(half) kidding" in this case is probably 100% right!

 

[glemon]

Thanks for the correction Reid, some of the literature I have on that was a little confusing, I took a quick look and saw reference to the factory Ms leaving the factory at Longbridge when finished, but apparaently the process was build as a regular 100, upgrade to M spec at Warwick, then back to Longbridge for final inspection and further rectification and dispatch, or so the Piggot book says.

Ok I got the question wrong, though I would still think a car converted to Le Mans specification at Warwick if done upon sale or shortly after, well documented, and with original parts still on the car would be or at least should be of similar worth as a factory M. Don't know if it is, but I certainly would not turn my nose up at such a car.

Regards, Greg

 

[Bob_Spidell]

The story's a little muddled, but from what I've read there were actually about 1,000 cars that could be considered 'factory' 100Ms; it's just that BMC didn't start documenting them until over 300 had been shipped, hence the '640' number.

That 'louvred bonnet' comment on the build sheet may be the most valuable, trivial text on any car record.

 

[glemon]

I agree Bob, and kind of what I was saying in a different way, there are 640 "factory" cars, but Geoff Healey said 1100 some Ms created, if they were converted in Warwick when new or right after sale I don't see much difference. Of course the post sale conversions will be harder or impossible to prove, as there is no "louvered bonnet" note.

 

[WaltCasten]

Well since this thread has gone in this direction I would like to ask this question:

How was it determined that the 'louvred bonnet' note on the heritage certificate was going to be the final determination to authenticate a 100M?

What if some guy wanted the louvred bonnet and ordered a regular car with one and vice versa? It always seemed a little odd to me that there was 1159 of them when Geoff was alive, then he passes on and suddenly there are only 640 when he is no longer with us to rubut or qualify.

I'm not trying to get booted off the forum or open a hornet's nest here, I'm truly interested.

 

[John Morrison]

The "Austin-Healey 100 In Detail" book by Bill Piggot seems to shed some light on your question, Walt.

 

[TimK]

A very entertaining thread even to someone who doesn't really care about the subject!

 

[nevets]

So here's a question...Since nearly all Austin Healeys are a hybrid of original and reproduction parts, some more than others, what if an owner of an authentic, certified 100M crashes his car and the frame and body are severely damaged. Fortunately, this same owner has an unrestored regular 100 sitting in his garage, which he then restores using the drivetrain from the authentic 100M. Is the restored Healey considered an authentic 100M?

 

[dougie]

This scenario has been play out in the Ferrari world for years. Where ever the original chassis number/vin number lands has been considered the original, go figure.....

 

[HealeyRick]

So here's a question...Since nearly all Austin Healeys are a hybrid of original and reproduction parts, some more than others, what if an owner of an authentic, certified 100M crashes his car and the frame and body are severely damaged. Fortunately, this same owner has an unrestored regular 100 sitting in his garage, which he then restores using the drivetrain from the authentic 100M. Is the restored Healey considered an authentic 100M?

Nope, 100 body numbers were stamped on various parts of the car, including the louvered bonnet on an M. If all the body numbers don't match, it would be impossible to demonstrate you had a genuine M. That's not to say fakes haven't been made, which really argues for having one of the marque experts check out a purported M before shelling out for a purchase.

 

[elrey]

I would consider it a 100 with authentic 100M parts on it but not an authentic 100M.

 

[Editor_Reid]

...Is the restored Healey considered an authentic 100M?

Of course not. It is a combination of components of two cars.

In the muscle car world they call them "tributes" or maybe "clones."

You can "make" a 100M even now, using all original components if you can find and buy them, but it will be a clone, a reconstruction, because it wasn't built in the day and sold new as a 100M model.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Just went through an interesting exercise with our 100M. We wanted to get the template for the front of the two-tone paint job (the curl behind the wheel wells). Bill Meade, who runs the 100M Registry, won't sell the template unless the car is a 'registry certified' car; cars verified with just the BMIHT Cert. are 'owner certified.' We had to provide photos of:

- VIN and body plates
- engine ID plate
- distributor
- carburettors
- various body parts; inc. bonnet, boot lid, aluminum cockpit surrounds with stamped number corresponding to the BMIHT cert.
- general pictures of car

So, I would say if you're missing any of these the car can't be considered a 'registry certified' car.

Disclaimer: The 100M Registry, is a voluntary, private citizen-run organization. AFAIK, it has no 'official' sanction, but it is the only way to prove the car's provenance.

 

[WaltCasten]

Just went through an interesting exercise with our 100M. We wanted to get the template for the front of the two-tone paint job (the curl behind the wheel wells). Bill Meade, who runs the 100M Registry, won't sell the template unless the car is a 'registry certified' car; cars verified with just the BMIHT Cert. are 'owner certified.'

So this pattern is different on 100Ms than the regular BN2 two-tone cars that it needs to be some highly guarded secret? I am two-toning my regular BN2 which is currently under restoration. They will be shooting the main colour shortly so I am very curious about this side colour "arc" as I will need to give them direction within the next couple weeks. My car is not going to be a concours style resto so it is not critical but that "arc" is something I need to address and figured why not make it original style.

The "Austin-Healey 100 In Detail" book by Bill Piggot seems to shed some light on your question, Walt.

Thanks John. I re-read the "100-M" chapter and paid much closer attention. This book must have been what planted the question in my head as he says pretty much the same thing. There were 100M car(s) delivered sans the hood and regular cars delivered to warm climates with louvred hood added so the 640 number is somewhat vague, but should be very close. It's odd they demand such a premium as 640 out of 4604 isn't really that rare, IMO. Although it looks as of late they have stagnated or dropped somewhat and the regular 100's have risen, but I digress.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here, I'm on this thread because the engine is out of my regular BN2 for them to paint the engine compartment and I am kicking around making some Le Mans mods to it. Truth is, the "value premium" doesn't mean anything to me except for knowing what to insure the car for. I would be driving this car even if it were still worth $2500 (what my Dad originally paid for it back in the early '80s). There is another thread about the Le Mans kit that is more appropriate for me but this is still of interest. Thanks guys.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

So this pattern is different on 100Ms than the regular BN2 two-tone cars that it needs to be some highly guarded secret?

Have heard/read that only 100M's came from the 'factory' with two-tone paint, the vast majority being white/over black. Anyone know for sure (I don't have the Piggott book, yet)?

I'm sure a lot of cars had the second color added at the dealer's or by the owner--the car is a 'natural' for two-tone--like my BJ8.

 

[bighealeysource]

Hey Bob,
Here's the breakdown of the colors on the 640 cars -

white over black - 117
Healey blue over white - 108
reno red over black - 92
black over reno red - 71
white - 62
Florida green over white - 55
black - 42
Healey blue - 39
reno red- 23
Carmine red - 21
spruce green - 21
Florida green - 5
white over reno red - 1
black over pink - 1

544 of the 640 came to the US, balance all over Europe, etc

Regards,
Mike

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Obviously not a 'vast majority.'

Any idea if all/most of the cars were special-ordered colors, or were they just built and sent to dealers to sit on the lot?

 

[Editor_Reid]

Any idea if all/most of the cars were special-ordered colors, or were they just built and sent to dealers to sit on the lot?

I've seen and pored over John Wheatley's transcript of the BN2 production records.

I recall that extremely few were other than regular production meant to be sent to dealers. A very few were noted as being sent to/ordered by the Donald Healey Motor Company where they either had an order (perhaps from a US serviceman stationed in England - not every order was a "special" order; some were just orders) or they just wanted one for their stock. Remember that they also ran an Austin dealership in those days. Not every car that was ordered by the Donald Healey Motor Company was a "works special" or "personally owned by Donald Healey" etc. etc. Most were were just merchandise being prepared for and sold to customers. (It is always mildly interesting when you discover a car that passed through the Donald Healey Motor Company for some reason, but it does not mean that it is a "special" car.)

The duo-toning (second color added) was done at the Donald Healey Motor Company when they applied the parts that made a car into a 100M. The duo-toning really began after the first of the year, with almost all 100Ms made in 1955 in a single color, and a very large majority of those made in 1956 duo-toned.

(A very, very few standard cars (not 100M) that were duo-toned does not disprove the rule.)

Since the second color was added at the Donald Healey Motor Company, by hand one at a time over a period of months, I think it is reasonable to believe that there was some small variation in the radius of the break line between the upper and lower colors, although obviously there were a lot that were very, very close and that is the standard that the Concours Committee looks for. It would not be difficult to duplicate just by closely studying good photos of duo-toned cars.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Thanks, Reid; very informative.

Kinda changes the perspective a little (in my mind anyway). Instead of buyers specifically 'targeting' a 100M for the added performance (or panache) it's probable--since a relatively large number of BN2 100Ms were shipped--that some bought 100Ms because they wanted a Healey 100 and there happened to be an 'M' on the lot (and, of course, the 'louvred bonnet' is way cool).