TR6 TR6 put put sounds, part 2

[ichthos]

All the rockers moved about the same. I do not understand your last sentence - can you explain in more detail what you mean?

Kevin

 

[Deleted member 8987]

A leakdown tester will show the percentage of leakage, and the hiss of escaping air will direct you to where (exhaust pipe=exhaust valves, air cleaners with throttles open=intake valves, oil fill cap=rings or piston)
Shop air (125-150PSI) applied with an adaptor to the plug hole with rockers backed off and hands clear of fan belt and blade will work to just find out what is leaking.

I don't think you need to buy a leakdown tester, as the issue is enough you can hear it.
Air to the cylinders will tell you either which valve or a jug issue.

Possibly a head gasket.
At that point you can sort of budget what you will need to do money and time-wise.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

BTW, what part of Washington State are you in?

 

[pjsmetana]

Possibly a head gasket.

I seriously doubt it after looking at his compression and vacuum. I'm betting on valves at this point.

What do the plugs look like? Maybe posting a picture of all 4 side by side, and pointing out which came out of #3, would help us a lot.

When you did this vacuum test, under acceleration you said it dropped then leveled off. How far did it drop and where did it level off at? I don't need anything exact, as long as its not as low as 0. Although, if its as high as 10 then that would matter.

By chance have you inspected your exhaust system? A kinked pipe can play tricks on compression and vacuum, as can a faulty manifold gasket.

If your anything like me, then right about now your getting pretty frustrated and are about ready to give up. Just relax, have a beer, and know that we are going to figure this out.

 

[poolboy]

I don't see anyway around removing the head. I mean you can test it until the cows come home, but sooner or later you're gonna want to fix it, right ?

 

[Mickey Richaud]

I don't see anyway around removing the head. I mean you can test it until the cows come home, but sooner or later you're gonna want to fix it, right ?

Yep - Get 'er done and be done with it.

 

[Tinster]

I don't see anyway around removing the head. I mean you can test it until the cows come home, but sooner or later you're gonna want to fix it, right ?

Yep - Get 'er done and be done with it.

<span style="color: #990000">Not to be contrary,
but Kevin has very little money. If he pulls the head what does he
get fixed/replaced since he does not yet know what is broken.

Just curious is all. What would you guys tell Kevin to
fix/repair/replace?

Kevin's in a hard spot and needs help.

dale (Tinster)</span>

 

[Mickey Richaud]

I don't see anyway around removing the head. I mean you can test it until the cows come home, but sooner or later you're gonna want to fix it, right ?

Yep - Get 'er done and be done with it.

<span style="color: #990000">Not to be contrary,
but Kevin has very little money. If he pulls the head what does he
get fixed/replaced since he does not yet know what is broken.

Just curious is all. What would you guys tell Kevin to
fix/repair/replace?

Kevin's in a hard spot and needs help.

dale (Tinster)</span>

My wife will tell you: The only thing I'm expert in is putting my foot in it!

However, at this point, if he doesn't get the head off, he may never discover what's really going on there. It may not be an expensive fix, and at this point, it looks like the only way to find the trouble. But that's just my take...

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Which is why I gave him options and how to do a hillbilly leakdown.

I also said I have seen a head gasket gone to the outside...once.

Air is going to tell him right now.

I could tell by the posts it was a matter of money, hence the lapping one new valve in for a "patch".

If he's got a hole in the piston, or seriously broken ring lands, air is going to come out the oil fill cap.

If he's got an exhaust valve out, air in the tailpipe.

I already had him check for flat cam, so that's out of the way.

If he doesn't check certain things while it's together, and he pulls the head and finds nothing wrong, then what?

What you DO is make all the necessary tests BEFORE surgery.

VERY difficult to re-do missing test results once it's apart.

If you had simply yanked a head in my shop, and that wasn't it, well, hopefully there is unemployment.....

 

[TR6oldtimer]

I have a second engine I bought a while back. The engine had serial numbers just a few away from mine (it was pulled from a 69), and the price was too good to pass up. I was thinking of just putting this head on my engine and see what happens. The worst that would happen is I woul be out time and a head gasket it it doesn't work. I am paying to have my carbs built professionally, and I am not thrilled at paying hundreds of dollars more right now. What do you think of the idea?

Kevin

Kevin, this is what a spare engine is for. You can pull the head from the spare engine and slap it on the other engine. Chances are it will put you back on the road. Or better, you could call around and see what the local machine shops charge for a valve job and have them go through it, and it should not cost much if no new parts are needed. I had a '73 head, with a lot of abusive miles on it, even with all that, the valves and seats were still in good enough shape they cold have just been lapped in. More problematic is the rocker shaft and rocker arm wear, which will cost you some money for a new shaft and whatever rocker arms are needed or can be salvaged from the other engine to get things going.

For the price of a head and exhaust gasket and perhaps a couple of other parts, I would swap the heads, and give it a go until you have the bucks for a more thorough re-build.

When you do not have a lot of money to throw at the problem, you have to work with what you got, so time to get greasy.

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Great suggestion, Ray - two birds with one stone, that!

 

[hondo402000]

Kevin
If money is an issue, just how much money do you have to invest in fixing the problem, If you have none to invest then you could park the car till you have the cash or keep driving it as is. Like most agree and I think its a valve that wont close, a burnt valve, or a hole in the piston, leaking head gasket. least money you could get by spending is for a head gasket, so if you pull the head you have to replace the gasket to put it back together so 50-60? that is if you dont destroy the manifold gasket or water pump gasket

so how much money do you have to invest

 

[poolboy]

I don't know what the going rate is for having his carbs rebuilt, but if money was tight, I sure wouldn't send them off for rebuilding when for a hundred and twenty dollars and the Buckeye site for reference and the support of the Forum members, he could DIY, as many others have done.
Of course they wouldn't be polished all over and as pretty, but the covers can be polished up pretty darn good at home.
Let's face it, he has a problem with the compression, how on earth is he going to fix it w/o at least removing the head ?
30 #'s of compression on that cylinder sure does seem like more than a stuck valve that can be cleared up with water misting or top end cleaners.
I could be wrong about this whole thing; it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[TR3driver]

I'm inclined to agree, 30 psi is a great big problem that will be obvious once you can see inside. Last time I had a reading that low, 1/8 of the valve head was burned away. Still, it wouldn't hurt to put some air into #3 and listen for where it comes out before removing the head.

My cheap Sunpro compression gauge is the kind with a screw-in fitting. Turns out the gauge itself can be unscrewed from the hose, and an air line quick connect adapted in with a 1/4-1/8 NPT adapter (available from Home Depot, etc.). Remove the Schrader valve from the cylinder end, and you've got a cheap way of applying air to the cylinder.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

I didn't recommend water misting.

But, and here is the big problem....
He has a spare engine.

Unless it is brand new or freshly rebuilt, it classifies as.....used.
What is in the car now is......used.

Unless he had the new/used engine checked out while it was in a chassis and running, what it to say it doesn't have the same problem or worse?

While it is a good idea, some preliminary works needs to be done first.

The head needs to come off the new/used engine, and checked over.
If it was mine, I would check the level, clean gasket surfaces and inspect carefully for cracks.

I would pull each valve one at a time, de-carbonize the back and front of the valve, ports, and combustion chambers, lap each to it's respective seat, replace stem seals (if used), BEFORE I pulled the running car out of service.

And hope and pray that the 30 pounds of compression isn't caused by broken rings.

The good news is LBC's semed to have a propensity (when I was doing this for a living) of head issues, valves and guides, so the chances are good this is it.

Dave (who, if the owner is close enough to me, is willing to look at the car)

(oh, and on the vacuum......all that is, is an indication of the suction of each cylinder on the fuel downstroke.
If a valve is bad, it pops more towards nothing. If a piston is holed, it pops towards nothing. If a head gasket is blown to the outside, it pops towards nothing. He's only got an inch variation. That is NOT a lot)

 

[ichthos]

Thanks for all the imput/help everyone. EOC, I live in Rochester, WA. I am about one half hour south of Olympia. I admit I am getting pretty frustrated. My car is a daily driver I depend on. I was glad to know that driving my car is ok over the short term - I wasn't sure if it would damage anything by me driving it right now. I am not sure how much my rebuilt carbs will be yet, but I don't have hundreds of dollars more to invest either right now. It seems like no matter what I do the head will have to come off. I just wanted to make sure I did what I could to assess/pinpoint the problem before I removed it. All it will cost me is a head gasket if I remove the head right now since I will have to put on a new manifold gasket anyway when I put on the rebuilt carbs. I figure it will be a minumum of $500-600 to rebuild the head which I don't have money for at the moment, which also doesn't make sense if it is just one valve anyway unless I were upgrading to the new harder valves and seats. It looks like my choices are 1) to keep on driving until I have the money, 2) Pull the head and have a machine shop check/repair the valves for cylinder #3 (the most likely problem at this point), 3)Swap heads with my other engine and gamble the valves are acceptable with the idea I would have the second head gone through and rebuild at a later date. I won't be getting my rebuilt carbs back for at least a week and a half, so I wont' be touching anything until then. In the meantime, I will have to figure out if I will do choice #2 or #3 and order a new head gasket. Does my plan seem reasonable?

 

[DNK]

Dave - He lives south of Oly. Around Raymond or someplace.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Okay.
Little far for me.
My movement is more restricted now than it was when I was younger!

Pulling valves is NOT a big deal, if you have a spring compressor.

Are you a member of any local car clubs, LBC or other?

Surely someone in said clubs has the tools and probably workbench you need to sort out the new/used head and get stuff together before you start.

That said, do you have a torque wrench?

 

[DNK]

He isn't and being a teacher he must be busy getting ready for the fall start.
Bet he has a torque wrench

 

[poolboy]

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to get the head off the spare and bring it to a machine shop for evaluation.
I, more or less, did the same thing while I was accumulating money for parts to redo the engine in my driver.
To my surprise, the cost to recondition that head was 120.00. I was concerned that the valve seats might need replacing along with the valve guides, but, no, the machinist did a hardnest test and they were just fine as was the valve guides.
The machinist said he'd be glad to replace anything and everything, if I just wanted to spend the money, but with his 52 years in the business, he didn't need the money and I trusted his judgement.
So, get the facts and an evaluation of that spare head before you start spending bucks in your head.