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TR4/4A TR4 / 4A Commission Number Plates -- LBS or KILOS?

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Geo Hahn

Geo Hahn

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Normally I try to avoid cross-posting but as I am trying to get as many data points as I can, here goes:

I'm interested in what late TR4s and 4As with ORIGINAL commission number plates show as the unit of weight -- i.e. is the weight (which may have been left blank) expressed in LBS or KILOS?

I know what Piggot shows, I also think I know what Moss and TRF supply -- just looking for original examples to see if this was changed at some point, or based on destination (home market, USA, etc) or just a mixed bag. Thanks!
 
Geo, is this an original plate on my 4A? Not much info there.
complate.jpg
 
Hi Geo,

Here is the original plate from my car. Since the printing is all gone, it really doesn't tell you what units it <span style="font-style: italic">said</span> was on there, but I have to assume it was pounds and not kilos.

-Darrell
 

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Wow! I now understand what Jonmac said about having a few pints first!
 
TR3driver said:
Wow! I now understand what Jonmac said about having a few pints first!
Click to expand...

I always wondered when folks talk about rigging up jigs to get their numbers stamped straight, and always thought mine must be unique!

Looking at Richard's and mine, I can see some similarities in the wild placement. For example, the "CT" is well aligned, but the last "C" (for IRS), isn't. Perhaps these were partially prepared ahead of time, the someone looked at the car to complete it? Or maybe they had a "CT" stamp, and added the final "C" after? The number is kind of the same, the final digit isn't well aligned, though I doubt the had a fixed stamp the rest of the numbers.
 
Darrell_Walker said:
Looking at Richard's and mine, I can see some similarities in the wild placement. For example, the "CT" is well aligned, but the last "C" (for IRS), isn't. Perhaps these were partially prepared ahead of time, the someone looked at the car to complete it? Or maybe they had a "CT" stamp, and added the final "C" after? The number is kind of the same, the final digit isn't well aligned, though I doubt the had a fixed stamp the rest of the numbers.
Click to expand...
It makes sense that the CT would be aligned but that the following "C" might not be, as these cars likely came down the same line (certainly their commission plates did). As for a final digit usually being askew, that makes sense from explanations I've heard...that these were done in groups of ten, where the first four (or however many) digits were held and stamped together, then final digits stamped separately. Presumably, the "L" (and/or "O") also would be added separately.

So a perfectly aligned number stamping is usually a dead giveaway that it's not the original plate. :laugh:
 
Yes, in the TR4A examples I've seen the first 4 digits appear to have been gang punched with the ultimate digit done by someone either in a hurry or with his eyes closed.

Safe to assume that any plate with 2660 in the weight space would have had LBS printed on it.

A pattern is emerging -- a story and a question will follow.
 
Interesting that Richard's doesn't have the weight stamped but Darrell's does.

I'll check at least my unrestored one out as it may actually have the paint left on it.

Scott
 
My CT30k something 1964 left with a kilo plate - it was bought by a US air force pilot who took it right off the assembly line. I can check on a later commission later when I visit the storage bin.
 
I have one that starts with 1CTC XXXXX L, its the second one I'll seen/had that way. Someone said its a late TR4a. I never have gotten a full story.

Marv
 
The UK is still only partially metric now, the weights were in pounds. We should be lucky that they are not in Stone. :wink:
 
Marvin Gruber said:
I have one that starts with 1CTC XXXXX L, its the second one I'll seen/had that way. Someone said its a late TR4a.
Click to expand...
In this case, I think the initial "1" indicates a car assembled in Belgium, possibly for a German or other European market sale. Does it have a steering/ignition lock and other-than-normal rear license plate lamps? If so, it was built for the German market.
 
swift6 said:
The UK is still only partially metric now, the weights were in pounds. We should be lucky that they are not in Stone. :wink:
Click to expand...

One of my manuals lists the weight in "CWT" (hundred weight).
 
TR4 CT 26632 L has the earlier plate with no color/trim spaces and the weight is 1205 kilos. It's interesting to note that on this plate the C and T are not aligned with each other and the center 3 numbers (663) are aligned while the first and last digits are slightly lower.

Bill Piggott states that the late TR4/TR4A commission plates started in January 1964 at CT22807. However, I believe this to be a few months premature (at least stateside). Service Bulletin T-64-11(W)dated 06 March 1964 stated that paint and trim codes will gradually be introduced to the TR4 commission plate and CT26632L is well beyond the number quoted by Bill Piggott.

gary
CT 1547 L
CT 7696 L
CT 18153 L
CT 26632 L
 
As I understand it, the British have reached a compromise with the EU on Metrics. (perhaps this is outdated?) From the BBC, 2007: BBC "John Gardner, director of the pro-imperial British Weights and Measures Association, said: "I've seen the European Commission statement and what they're saying is it will be allowed to use imperial measurements as additional information.

"We think that the European Commission statement is extremely misleading. From our point of view the situation hasn't changed and the campaign goes on.

"If a trader tries to conduct his business in just imperial measurements that will be illegal.""

Perhaps they couldn't get used to the .4732 liter of bitter after work.

Back to the original topic, there was a post on another forum by someone who was looking for metric TR gauges, temp and oil included, to replace originals. So one could guess that at least some of the cars destined for the continental market were metric. Don't know if this included the commission tag or not.
Tom
 
It appears from my informal poll that cars to the States had plates with LBS and those bound for the continent and home market used KILOS. Also appears that LBS were stamped with the weight and KILOS left blank.

But... it was a small sample and many plates have lost their paint or have undocumented origins so there may well be exceptions. Indeed my TR4 is one such exception as its original plate said KILOS though it was despatched to Standard Triumph in L.A. The rest of the story...

My commission # is CT36536L but there is something strange about that number... it is 6500 higher than the engine and body numbers, yet all are correct as per the Heritage Certificate.

When I removed the original and (nearly bare of paint) commission plate I found a second set of holes where apparently a prior plate had been drilled out and new holes drilled for a replacement plate. That part of the mystery may never be answered though there are some other clues that the car may have been built 6 months earlier and then 'warmed-over' at the factory prior to finally being despatched to the US.

It appears that when the vehicle was re-commissioned (sounds better than warmed-over) they used a KILOS plate -- perhaps reaching for whatever was at hand or taking one meant for a home market car that was never built.

So my question: Does anyone know of a source for a replacement 'KILOS' plate in the U.S. (found a source in the UK)?

Andy's Herald site shows an example of a Herald commission plate with KILOS (which appears otherwise identical to a TR4 plate) so perhaps all Heralds showed KILOS and I need to find a source for a replacement Herald plate?

Thanks for all the info and any suggestions on where to find a replacement for mine.
 
Slightly off topic, but my car (originally sold in California), has a centigrade temperature gauge. It is possible it was replaced at some point (the car was 15 years old when I got it, and over the years I've discovered quite a few major parts that were not original to the car), though it matches perfectly, so it is clearly period-correct.
 
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