TR2/3/3A TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

[Hatman]

TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

Once I get the shift lever out (see my other post), I'm pretty much ready to pull the engine/trans on my TR3. My question is: does it make sense to pull the head first to clean the rust and scale out of the water jackets? It's not a huge ordeal since everything is already off the motor -- just pulling the timing chain, etc. I understand the head can be a real bear to get off on a car that's been in one piece for at least 25 years, probably longer.

I'm trying to avoid the "well, while I'm in there might as well . . ." slippery slope and had intended to leave the engine alone; just put in a new clutch, clean and paint, and re-install. However, before I started disassembling the car last year, I noticed the coolant was very rusty. Knowing I was going to replace the radiator, I put coolant flush in and ran through several "add water/bring engine up to temp/drain water" cycles. It never drained completely clear, but perhaps that's the nature of the beast?

So what's the collective wisdom of the group? Pull the head so I can get in there and really clean things up? Or leave it alone and focus on getting the car back together and out on the road sometime this decade?

Here's a pic of the water pump, which probably is a good indicator of what the inside of the engine looks like.

 

[TR3driver]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

Tough call, IMO.
Mine may have been even worse than yours, but I was in a hurry, so I just left it dirty. I've already flushed it a second time, getting ready to do it a third time; but it's still a WHOLE lot less work than disassembling to clean the water jacket. And in the meantime, I've been driving the car to work (when it's not raining).

BTW, just pulling the head won't let you clean much of the water jacket. Removing the liners will, but then all that crud is going to fall down into the crankcase, which means you'd better do a total strip & clean; which quickly turns into a full rebuild.

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

I'm with Randall - tough call. There's a certain truth to the "If it ain't broke" rule.

In the words of my bubba, Doc: "Neener, neener - you touched it!"

 

[Don Elliott]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

Mark - Your water pump looks like an original pump. If it doesn't leak or make a noise, use this same one because the repro pumps have a cast iron impeller which is smaller on the outside diameter ans it won't pump as much coolant, so you may overheat.

I you pull the head, you can scrape quite a bit of rust and flakes from the inside which you could vacuum out from the top. When you drain the block, open the brass "tap" down near the starter and if nothing comes out, poke a length of coat-hanger wire into the valve to loosen whatever is blocking the outlet. On the other hand, if you open the drain on the block and nice coolant comes out, the inside of you engine is also probably quite clean.

BTW Randall, my thermostat housing looked exactly like yours in 1987 when I started my restoration. My TR3A had been sitting from 1972 to 1987 and that's what I found when I opened up mine like your photo.

Mark, if you do as Randall has done - removing the top hoses - and you find it's clean, then your engine inside will probably also be clean.

Since 1990, I have driven 102,000 miles using 50/50 water/antifreeze for 18 years and then 80% water/20% antifreeze for the last 2 years and all these interior "indicators" are still clean. Long, long ago, we were too cheap to put in any antifreeze and the water would cause rust and other crud to accumulate. Using a 20/80 mix will keep it clean and I switched from 50/50 because I heard that 20/80 has better heat transfer properties to prevent overheating. I also pour in a bottle of Water Wetter avery 2 or 5 years - just in case.

 

[Hatman]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

Thanks guys. I think I'll probably just leave everything sealed up -- the motor did pretty well on a leak-down test, so there's really no need to open it up other than to try to clean out the rust/sediment. The thermostat and water pump housing were very clean -- no build-up there at all. Back when I was draining the block, I did have to pull the tap and poke a coat hanger in to get some larger rust flakes out, but I seemed to get most of that out. My thinking is once I get the engine back in, I'll fill it up with water, use a hose in place of the radiator, and run it through a few heat cycles, draining after each one.

On the subject of water pumps, I wasn't sure if my pump was original since it doesn't have a grease zerk? While it wasn't leaking, I've been very tempted to replace it since you have to remove the apron, radiator, etc., to replace it.

Thoughts?

 

[Geo Hahn]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

...and had intended to leave the engine alone; just put in a new clutch, clean and paint, and re-install...

Do you really need to pull the engine for that? The gearbox comes out pretty easily for the clutch and you don't have to remove the shift lever to do it.

The engine and engine compartment can be painted in situ -- the ancillaries have to be removed and you have to be a little crafty but not too bad.

Not trying to talk you out of it (especially if you already have the apron off) just pointing out the alternative.

 

[TR3driver]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

Definitely not necessary to pull the engine to change the clutch. IMO it's quite a bit easier overall leaving the engine in place (with a suitable support) and removing the gearbox through the inside of the car; even though it is a bit awkward working under the dash. But I even changed the flywheel that way just a few months ago, and I still think it's easier than doing the engine R&R (since it avoids having to R&R the front apron, radiator, etc.)

The water pump can also be serviced without removing the apron. I removed mine when the engine overheated on it's first outing; but the pump was fine so I put it back rather than replacing it. The problem was apparently crud from inside the engine block getting into the radiator and blocking flow through the tubes; a thorough backflush with water and high pressure air solved the problem at least temporarily.

If the zerk is missing, then you likely have an early replacement pump. Given the many problems with replacement parts these days, I'd agree with Don to not change it unless it is malfunctioning in some way.

 

[JKB1957]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

IMO the only way to really clean out an engine block is to pull the engine and have the block boiled out by a machine shop. Even then you will probably need to use a dremel tool to clean out some of the residual scale. Good luck.

 

[Hatman]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

For me, it made sense to pull the engine, since I wanted to replace the clutch, clean and paint the engine and the engine compartment, replace both the engine and trans mounts, and rebuild the front suspension.

The car was originally Primrose Yellow and was repainted BRG at some point prior to me buying the car 25 years ago. They sprayed the engine compartment with a texturized undercoating before painting. And they pretty much painted over everything in the engine bay -- brake lines, fuel lines, wiring, etc. The undercoating isn't too heavy, and it comes off pretty easy, but figured it would be easier to do everything I needed to do with the engine out. The engine, trans, front suspension, frame rails, etc., are covered with 50 years of grease, grime, and gunk that would have been very difficult to clean with everything in place.

Anyway, popped the engine out today -- it was pretty easy. Now it's on to stripping the engine compartment and painting.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Re: TR3 -- Pull the head "while I'm in there . . ."

In that case -- I think you have a good plan and I applaud your through approach.