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TR2/3/3A TR3/4 Oil Pan Gasket

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LexTR3 said:
I have checked everymanual that I own, and none speak of some of the bolts being shorter or longer. The assumption is that all of them are the same size.
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That is actually quite typical of all automotive service manuals, Ed. The assumption is not that they are all the same size, but rather that you know to put all of the parts back together as they were before you took them apart. This is one of the "basic mechanical skills" that the books (silently) assume the reader has.

As a rule, I try to get a copy of the factory service manual for all of my cars. The GM manuals in particular contain lots of warnings, that amount to only saying "put the bolts back where you found them". Sometimes the diagrams will have bolt dimensions, but not often. They actively discourage substituting the orginal bolts with common hardware-store stuff, which frequently is not made to the same standards as the original fasteners. There is a lot more to a bolt than just "Grade 5" (and common hardware store hardware is typically only Grade 2 if that).

GM seems particularly prone to using fasteners that are engineered specifically to the application, if it will save a couple of pennies by (for example) eliminating a lock washer (I don't think there is a single lockwasher on my Buick) or making it easier to assemble the car. One of my favorite examples is the bolts that held the front swaybar brackets to the frame on my Chevy Citation. They were about 3" long and fully threaded (so they could be used to compress the sway bar bushings into place), plus a rounded triangular shape instead of round (so they acted like a Nyloc nut in the hole), and tapered literally to a point (so they would pull the bracket into alignment with the nut).
 
TR3driver said:
ISTR I got the suggestion from Ken G. at BFE, but I can't lay my hands on the note at the moment. It might have been in "Tech Talk"...
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Tech Talk, Volume 2, ENGINE, page 29.

Interesting reading, I agree it should have current & wider distribution.
 
Randall,

I agree with you fully: Put all the parts together as they were before they were taken apart. The problem is, however, that the bolts holding the pan when I bought the car had been swapped out by previous owners who tried to save money or save time by apparently using what they had on hand. In other words, what was there was wrong.

The shop that installed my new gasket a year ago apparently used the same length bolts all around, and threw the old bolts away.

What I hope to do now, with help from from the BCF, is to install the proper length bolts myself to the oil pan. I believe I have ordered the proper bolts, and now it is a matter of putting them into the correct holes.

The hex bolts I have ordered from BoltDepot are stainless steel, grade 8 bolts. I talked to a technician there and was assured that the bolts I ordered were intended for automotive use. I also have some coming from TRF and I'll compare the two sets, use one, and put the other into "storage."

I have found in a number of places on this car that former owners never bothered to find proper screws, bolts, clevis pins, etc., but used what was easily available. I am correcting all that mess.

One last question: What is involved in loosening the support rod for the clutch slave before removing its pan bolt, and -- more to the point -- what is involved in readjusting the support rod. Lacking any specific guidance, my approach would be to make note of how it is arranged and put it back exactly as it was. Any precautionary advice here? Any photos or diagrams of what I will be dealing with?
 
As I recall from last summer, it's not too complicated; Take a couple pix of the road draft tube area, I think everything else will be self explanatory. The only hard part will be positioning the oil pan with one hand and then threading a couple bolts to hold it in place with the other.....
 
LexTR3 said:
One last question: What is involved in loosening the support rod for the clutch slave before removing its pan bolt...
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I just back off the nut on the slave side of the support rod and removed the nut on the opposite side. Once the oil pan bolt that hold the bracket is undone the rod can be removed.

Putting it back is, as they say, reverse of the above. I tighten the nut on the slave side til it contacts the bracket and then just a bit more. Then tighten the opposite nut.

If you look at the photo I sent (PM) of the exposed crankcase you will see I have 2 little all-thread rods (possibly decapitated bolts) threaded into a couple of the oil pan holes -- these then make it easy to get the pan lined up and held in position with one hand while you grab a few of the real bolts and thread them up. I had forgotten that trick until I looked at that old photo but as I recall it made it easier to get the pan in place.

The aforementioned photo:

crank3.jpg


<span style="font-style: italic">And looking at that photo I see that I have just loosened the support rod and swung it out of the way -- no need to remove it entirely (though I had to for my latest effort for another reason (broken bolt)</span>
 
Geo Hahn said:
You will see I have 2 little all-thread rods (possibly decapitated bolts) threaded into a couple of the oil pan holes -- these then make it easy to get the pan lined up and held in position with one hand while you grab a few of the real bolts and thread them up.
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Geo, that is brilliant!; wish I'd thought of that!
 
Hi, George,

Would you happen to have a photo of the support rod showing the "slave side." I hesitate to "monkey around" with anything under the car unless I have a clear idea of what I'm doing... and in the case of the support rod ("slave side"), I definitely don't know what I'm doing. This is all new to me... but I am learning.

Your idea of two all-thread bolts used as a guide is a great idea. It will help a lot.
 
LexTR3 said:
Would you happen to have a photo of the support rod showing the "slave side."...
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Alas, no photo & the part is presently on the workbench.

It should be pretty obvious once you are looking at it -- there is a metal stay rod that goes from one of the oil pan bolts to the metal plate that the slave cylinder mounts to. The metal plate is bolted to the edge of the bell housing, the purpose of the stay rod is to support that plate and relieve much of the strain on the edge of the bell housing when the slave is operated.

The end of the rod is threaded and passes thru the top hole of the slave cylinder and a hole in the plate. It is secured with 2 nuts on that threaded section, one nut on each side of the plate. Loosening those nuts will take any strain off the rod and make it easy to undo the oil pan bolt (one of the 'long' ones) and move the rod out of the way.

Here's a pic from the Moss catalog (item 60 is the stay rod):

StayRod.gif
 
BTW, if your support rod is missing, eventually a section of the bell housing will separate.

BTDT....
 
George... and Darrell,

Many thanks for the information. As soon as the bolts, washers, and gasket arrive from TRF, I'll begin this project.

I think I'll start by just replacing the bolts and adding lockwashers and see if that has any effect on the oil leak. The shop guys put in a new gasket a years ago, so -- perhaps -- it is in OK shape.

If that doesn't work, then I'll remove the pan and go through the whole routine.

I know that these cars are notorious oil leakers, but I am optimistic that we can get the leaks down to seeps and weeps, and perhaps few ot those.

I really appreciate all the help and advice I have received.
 
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