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TR2/3/3A TR2/3 Guru Final Exam
- Thread starter CJD
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OP
CJD
Yoda
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The starter mounting bolts were tight...very, very hot.
OP
CJD
Yoda
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Nothing wrong with the bolt on ring gear...now we’re so close to the problem it’s killing me not to just blurt it out!
OP
CJD
Yoda
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And...I have to give it to Jeff!! You are not spot on, but you are so close you would have discovered it when you checked. So...you pull the starter to check the pinion, and here is what it looks like:
So, to pass the exam and win the part, Jeff...you will note there is NO return spring on the early style starter by design...can you detect the problem from the picture?
Everyone else give Jeff a chance to bring it home!
TRopic6
Jedi Warrior
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As luck would have it, I was in the basement unpacking my car books after our recent move and found my red TR2/3 service manual. Looks like the locating ring has come out of its slot on the armature shaft, with no sign of the locating ring cover, and the front bushing has moved rearward. All that could allow the whole armature to shift aft on acceleration; the pinion teeth do show rubbing on the side that faces the ring gear.
I was thinking that the "restraining spring" (Part H, Fig 20, p. 17 in Electrical Equipment) had broken or become weak with age/heat and allowing the Pinion & Barrel to shift aft. That spring (and some other parts) are covered by the barrel and not normally visible. I read over on p. 16 "A pinion restraining spring is fitted in the barrel assembly to prevent the pinion vibrating into mesh when the engine is running."
I have a bullet nose starter and a spare armature assembly in a box somewhere, but can't get to it to verify. Does your whole armature assembly shift fore & aft?
Added: I guess so - I see a good bit of the armature shaft is sticking out beyond the nose cover - Yikes!
Jeff
I was thinking that the "restraining spring" (Part H, Fig 20, p. 17 in Electrical Equipment) had broken or become weak with age/heat and allowing the Pinion & Barrel to shift aft. That spring (and some other parts) are covered by the barrel and not normally visible. I read over on p. 16 "A pinion restraining spring is fitted in the barrel assembly to prevent the pinion vibrating into mesh when the engine is running."
I have a bullet nose starter and a spare armature assembly in a box somewhere, but can't get to it to verify. Does your whole armature assembly shift fore & aft?
Added: I guess so - I see a good bit of the armature shaft is sticking out beyond the nose cover - Yikes!
Jeff
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OP
CJD
Yoda
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Whoop. Whoop!! We have a winner!!
All bow to the GURU of BCF!!!
This picture will show a close view of what Jeff is talking about...
Just as he says...the retainer came out of the shaft groove. This allowed the entire starter shaft to move to the rear on acceleration, so the pinion gear would rattle against the flywheel ring teeth. Spot on, Jeff!
This picture shows how the shaft is able to pull the pinion out of the stowed position, so it could continually hit the ring teeth, getting kicked back forward until the acceleration moved it back again. I assume in the higher gears there is not enough acceleration to move the shaft, therefore it only happened on hard acceleration in first...and sometimes second if I popped the clutch.
Here is a picture of how the clip is supposed to be seated into the shaft groove...
Here the shaft is prevented from sliding rearward, taking the pinion gear with it.
And Jeff, I have to thank you a ton for going into even greater detail. So far I simply reinstalled the clip, as in the picture. The clip is not tempered spring steel, but is very malleable. (Spelling?). So...I was wondering if I had pinched it correctly into place, or if I forgot to do so during the rebuild. Even if I DID crimp the clip, I was wondering what was supposed to prevent the pinion from pounding it back out later. Thank you so much for explaining that an outer retainer ring is missing altogether!!
Now I can locate the retainer and fix the starter for good...thanks!!
And thank you to everyone who participated in the exam. I’m sure I’ll have another opportunity for you to excel in the near future!
All bow to the GURU of BCF!!!
This picture will show a close view of what Jeff is talking about...
Just as he says...the retainer came out of the shaft groove. This allowed the entire starter shaft to move to the rear on acceleration, so the pinion gear would rattle against the flywheel ring teeth. Spot on, Jeff!
This picture shows how the shaft is able to pull the pinion out of the stowed position, so it could continually hit the ring teeth, getting kicked back forward until the acceleration moved it back again. I assume in the higher gears there is not enough acceleration to move the shaft, therefore it only happened on hard acceleration in first...and sometimes second if I popped the clutch.
Here is a picture of how the clip is supposed to be seated into the shaft groove...
Here the shaft is prevented from sliding rearward, taking the pinion gear with it.
And Jeff, I have to thank you a ton for going into even greater detail. So far I simply reinstalled the clip, as in the picture. The clip is not tempered spring steel, but is very malleable. (Spelling?). So...I was wondering if I had pinched it correctly into place, or if I forgot to do so during the rebuild. Even if I DID crimp the clip, I was wondering what was supposed to prevent the pinion from pounding it back out later. Thank you so much for explaining that an outer retainer ring is missing altogether!!
Now I can locate the retainer and fix the starter for good...thanks!!
And thank you to everyone who participated in the exam. I’m sure I’ll have another opportunity for you to excel in the near future!
Hill Billy
Member
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OK, that was interesting. No I need to go look at my starter.
I remember learning new cuss words when I first took an early starter apart, but it looks like you do not have to go that deep for the fix. Now I am wondering if I have a locating ring cover on this last one I rebuilt and installed. This exercise could be serendipitous. Plus I think I remember thinking this does not look right. Why wouldn’t the end just punch off? Moreover, I looked through my books and could not find a clear picture of the cover retainer ring . It must be part # A in the drawings, so anyways John did you find or make one.
Hill Billy
Member
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John,
After looking at my 1959 bull nosed starter I see a difference that could be significant. In your pictures there is a bronze/brass collar in front of the retaining clip. On my starter that collar is steel. However, the critical difference is that the collar has a recess machined in the face of it and that recess is where the retaining clip goes. Apparently what that does is prevent the clip from being forced out of the groove. And we now know what happens when the clip comes out of the groove.
I took a picture with my cell phone but don't know how to transfer that image to this this tablet. I'll figure that out later.
Enjoy your day.
Bill
After looking at my 1959 bull nosed starter I see a difference that could be significant. In your pictures there is a bronze/brass collar in front of the retaining clip. On my starter that collar is steel. However, the critical difference is that the collar has a recess machined in the face of it and that recess is where the retaining clip goes. Apparently what that does is prevent the clip from being forced out of the groove. And we now know what happens when the clip comes out of the groove.
I took a picture with my cell phone but don't know how to transfer that image to this this tablet. I'll figure that out later.
Enjoy your day.
Bill
TRopic6
Jedi Warrior
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I'm no guru compared to the real experts here, CJD included. What I thought was your out-of-place bronze front bushing was actually a makeshift Locating Ring Cover. I agree with Bill, it should have a recess to prevent the retaining/locating ring from being worked out of its slot.
The factory parts book doesn't show much detail but the service manual has a good diagram. I've never found a 'peg' on one; maybe Lucas simplified them at some point. The Restraining Spring 'H' keeps the pinion from drifting rearwards into the ring gear when accelerating or going up hill. Later-type starters use a similar spring to keep the pinion on the other side of the ring gear.
Have to admit - I've never heard of that happening before and never considered it when reusing a stretched and distorted one back on my TR3A back in the day. More that once, as I swapped it into my TR4 when it's starter was inop (It complained by making more racket than normal) Ignorance is bliss as they say.
The factory parts book doesn't show much detail but the service manual has a good diagram. I've never found a 'peg' on one; maybe Lucas simplified them at some point. The Restraining Spring 'H' keeps the pinion from drifting rearwards into the ring gear when accelerating or going up hill. Later-type starters use a similar spring to keep the pinion on the other side of the ring gear.
Have to admit - I've never heard of that happening before and never considered it when reusing a stretched and distorted one back on my TR3A back in the day. More that once, as I swapped it into my TR4 when it's starter was inop (It complained by making more racket than normal) Ignorance is bliss as they say.
OP
CJD
Yoda
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Thanks for the additional input guys. Yep, the more I look for this retainer, the more I realize I will have to fashion something. The parts manual does not even list it. Moss doesn't show it. VB...well...yeah!??
I think I will visit some local auto electric shops to see what they have, as I am sure it was common "in the day". Of course, it was likely more common than an auto electric shop is today. Most of ours have closed down. I may even have a spare starter kicking around to cannibalize.
It is very possible that I missed the fact the collar is not spring steel and neglected to crimp it. Anyway...it'll give me something to search for to keep me busy for a while. Thanks again!
I think I will visit some local auto electric shops to see what they have, as I am sure it was common "in the day". Of course, it was likely more common than an auto electric shop is today. Most of ours have closed down. I may even have a spare starter kicking around to cannibalize.
It is very possible that I missed the fact the collar is not spring steel and neglected to crimp it. Anyway...it'll give me something to search for to keep me busy for a while. Thanks again!
Hill Billy
Member
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John, if you can't easily locate a collar take the one you have, along with the clip, to a machine shop and have them cut in the recess. Shouldn't take a good machinest more than ten minutes.
TRopic6
Jedi Warrior
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A little internet sleuthing of vintage Lucas reference material shows that 1955-59 used starters with a slightly different arrangement than the service manual shows. Apparently starter motors 25541F/G/H used 'Jump Ring' 291616 and 'Collar, Location' 291614 to keep the armature in place. There's one on eBay now at a pricey $20.
I dug out my spare bullet-nose starter that I thought was untouched. No sign of a restraining ring or collar at all, so will need to solve that problem as well.
Jeff
I dug out my spare bullet-nose starter that I thought was untouched. No sign of a restraining ring or collar at all, so will need to solve that problem as well.
Jeff
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mastaphixa
Jedi Trainee
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I bet a friend with a lathe could turn out a replacement part.
Lukens
Jedi Warrior
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is it too late for me to enter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFX_IE4CUtU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFX_IE4CUtU
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Not the case here, but I once had the big spring on the end of the later starter come loose and go rattling around inside the bell housing. It would find a home and be quiet until the next big bump, which might mimic the symptoms John described.
Unfortunately, it exited through the bell housing before I got home (was in FL when it cane apart). The hole started a crack that eventually ruined an OD gearbox.
Unfortunately, it exited through the bell housing before I got home (was in FL when it cane apart). The hole started a crack that eventually ruined an OD gearbox.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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I see Bill beat me to it, but that ring is indeed soft, almost no spring to it at all. The steel collar has to fit over it and hold it in the groove; has to be assembled before the outer housing is bolted to the main housing.
Also means there has to be minimal end float in the armature with it assembled, so the collar has no room to come off the ring.
Also means there has to be minimal end float in the armature with it assembled, so the collar has no room to come off the ring.