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Toe in

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mgtf328

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Took my car in to get the steering alignment checked only to find that nobody knows what 1/16" toe-in means any longer. The machines they use measure the angles in degrees. Has anyone worked out what the toe-in is in degrees/minutes? Mine measures at 0deg 32 minutes total toe-in at the moment and I think that's still a bit to much toe-in it should be nearer 25 minutes.

A
 
A I looked in my books and they ask for 1/16 toe in also. No idea what deg it might be. That being said, I helped a friend who changed a tie rod and to get it to the shop I used a tape measure and went from the center grove of the tires front and back less 1/16 apox front. shop said was right on. Maybe it was maybe to close to change I was not there, AS far as I know it is that way today. If it goes straight with hands off the wheel and steering wheel is centered your good to go. Madflyer
 
My shop set mine to .01* for each wheel, to a total of .02.
 
I just talked to Alan at Hendrix wire wheel Monday. He says it should be set at ZERO and there was an update many years ago. I set mine at zero and it runs super fine. Prior I was running at almost 1/4 inch toe in and it was not tracking well. I purchased a jig on line for about $35.00. I had paid $95.00 to have it "professionally" adjusted a few years earlier (lasers and all). They said they set it by the book. You don't get the option to set each wheel as the rod turns both in or out equally at the same time. This is very easy to do with a jig and you can make one at home.
 
Well that leads to another question. What is the best value for toe-in? Right now I'm trying to set mine up to the book at 1/16". From my calcs, after the shop setting it to 30 minutes it should be a bit more than .15", just over 1/8" to much but not sure! I will go out and try to measure it today as described by Madflyer. I did try to build a rig some years ago for my MGTF but without much success.
However, if Drone Dogs .01* means .01 minutes of a degree then that's hardly anything at all and both Tahoe Healey and Drone Dog are saying that zero toe-in is the way to go. I'm trying to stop my passenger wheel from scrubbing on the outside, but I don't think I'm going to get much success as the camber on the driver's side is off as well. I've had the car for 4 years now and I've only just noticed it. I think I'll leave it and just swap the wheels over. It drives straight enough - just trying to get the tires to last a bit longer!

A
 
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I used the fishing line between jack stands method and was able to get pretty close to 1/16 overall. The car has never tracked better.
 
Used to use line and a tape measure for years. Then I saw someone made holders with slots with two tape measures and you can do front and back of tires both sides at a time with tool to add rear alignment. Took my truck in for tires and the did a free alignment check and told me I was 3* out. Said fine as long as wheel was straight. Well, tech used vice grips and wheel off the 3* to left. Had a rant, went home redid toe and never been back.
 
There are several "toe plates" available, some for about $50. Goes up against wheel and you measure difference front and back with two tape measures. Very quick to set up and accurate.
 
Begs the question--to me, at least--with the modern specs for zero toe and zero degrees camber, what is appropriate for an older car like our Healeys? My dad explained to me the reason for a degree or two positive camber was it made the track of the wheels like rolling an ice cream cone on its side; i.e. the cone would curve in the direction its tip pointed. With the wheels trying to turn outwards while rolling, this would pull slack out of the linkage, resulting in more-or-less zero toe-in as you drove. Modern cars, most with rack-and-pinion steering and more accurate McPherson or other coilover suspension, can have zero, or even slightly negative camber--for turn-in, I presume--and no toe-in. I know some run zero or negative camber; I wonder what effect that has on toe when rolling?
 
Well, I managed to get a measurement. I took a length of 2"X3" timber and clamped an 8" carpenter's square to one end. I placed the timber on the floor behind the wheels with the square touching the side wall. I ran around the other side, well, I walked, and with another square drew a line on the timber at the point where that square touched the side wall. Not disturbing the clamped square I did the same thing for the front. I had to do this from the other side of the car to make sure the timber touched the tire in the same place without disturbing the square. I then measured the distance between the two lines. I got a little more than 0.1 inches which is more than 1/16" but less than 1/8". That'll do me.

So this tells me that when the shop set the toe-in at 32 minutes, it wasn't far off. I would suggest that 28 minutes would be closer to 1/16", but I'm going to leave it as the car was driving OK before I did anything. I also swapped the wheels around so I'm hoping my tires will even out, last a little longer and I haven't upset the drivability.

A
 
Using tires is not a true measure. You need to measure from the rims. This all came up because I had tire wear that was uneven. More wear on the inner edge. I was also told (true or not) that radial tires run different than bias which was what the original specs of 1 degree toe in were based on.
Any way, I am happy with the results.
 
View attachment 65233This should help converting millimetres or inches to degrees “minutes “ came with my tracking tool
 

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Bob_Spidell said:
Begs the question--to me, at least--with the modern specs for zero toe and zero degrees camber, what is appropriate for an older car like our Healeys? My dad explained to me the reason for a degree or two positive camber was it made the track of the wheels like rolling an ice cream cone on its side; i.e. the cone would curve in the direction its tip pointed. With the wheels trying to turn outwards while rolling, this would pull slack out of the linkage, resulting in more-or-less zero toe-in as you drove. Modern cars, most with rack-and-pinion steering and more accurate McPherson or other coilover suspension, can have zero, or even slightly negative camber--for turn-in, I presume--and no toe-in. I know some run zero or negative camber; I wonder what effect that has on toe when rolling?
Click to expand...
The positive camber leads to understeer, which is safer for most drivers. It reduces the grip in front, compared to the rear.
 
From memory. I was told 1/16” toe in for bias ply tires and zero toe in for radials. I saw lots of toe in videos with diy jigs, etc, on YouTube. Boggles the mind.
 
I'm fixin' to buy one of those jigs myself. My BN2 has adjustable shock plates and I want to experiment with camber and toe. I'm not totally happy with the way it steers; it understeers more than I think it should (though I've only driven this one BN2 so that may just be the way they drive). I went to an alignment shop specializing in 'historical' cars and they hammered on my shocks; I think they couldn't figure out how the Kilmartin plates worked (I usually stay clear of someone I'm paying to work on my cars). At $200/ea for an 'alignment' I figure the gear will pay for itself quickly, and I should learn a lot about chassis configuration and handling (I've asked a few questions here over the years).

Although there are legitimate shops, my dad always thought the 'alignment' business was a bit of a racket. The old adage was 'get an alignment every time you get new tires,' which isn't really necessary--esp. on newer cars--unless there's been damage to the front end or significant wear, which shouldn't occur in less than 100K miles or more. I put 120K on my '08 Mustang, and went through at least a half-dozen sets of tires and never touched the alignment, and the tires wore evenly (after I quit following the manufacturer's 'recommended' inflation).
 
John Turney said:
The positive camber leads to understeer, which is safer for most drivers. It reduces the grip in front, compared to the rear.
Click to expand...

Thanks, John. Am I correct in thinking that caster keeps the car going in a straight line; i.e. more caster keeps the car on track, less does the reverse?
 
Caster brings the wheels straight, so it does, if all is correct, helps keep the car going straight. To be effective, the kingpin axis needs to align with the center of the tread forward of the contact patch.
 
mgtf328 said:
Took my car in to get the steering alignment checked only to find that nobody knows what 1/16" toe-in means any longer. The machines they use measure the angles in degrees. Has anyone worked out what the toe-in is in degrees/minutes? Mine measures at 0deg 32 minutes total toe-in at the moment and I think that's still a bit to much toe-in it should be nearer 25 minutes.

A
Click to expand...

see my earlier reply with photo, this include a conversation table, based on various Healey manuals should be between 14 and 29 minutes
 
Guffy60 said:
see my earlier reply with photo, this include a conversation table, based on various Healey manuals should be between 14 and 29 minutes
Click to expand...

Thanks again. I think the book calls for 1deg positive caster, seems pretty small compared to many. Maybe because it's a 'sports' car?
 
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